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"I just know how the look at things from a brighter perspective rather than be pessimistic and whiny all the time (no offense)"
In some aspects/cases I do the same, but if you can't see how much of a broken and lifeless piece of garbage this game is, then it's a "you" issue. Which is also the problem for many gamer's these days. I'm also guilty of that. Nowadays we just tend to accept the crap we are given on a plate and call it a day. But hey, "I at least lets enjoy the little things it has to offer".
I'm not always critical about every game I try. But TDU was part of my childhood, and I was waiting for a new TDU for ages. And this is what they delivered.
I will say it again for those that missed it: You cannot reliably judge the physics and handling of TDUSC based on the stock tunes in this game. Further, you have to spend a significant amount of time tweaking the force feedback to match the equipment you have. Absent that, you really have no way of judging it or comparing it to other titles.
I will assume you are not a tuner. Or, I am guessing, you didn't play TDUSC long enough to open up and discretely adjust the tuning of each of your cars in TDUSC.
I have tuned and critiqued 30 of the cars in TDUSC. I have long since reached level 60, I have completed the Streets Rep to 60, am now most of the way through Sharps Rep, I have 50 of the 64 Achievements, and I have first place on nearly every race. I enjoy the Expert AI. Long story short: I have a LOT of experience with the physics and handling model here.
My computer racing history is a long one. I have been racing on computers since well before EA cut the servers on Motor City Online. I have tried nearly arcade/racing/driving title since then which supports wheels. I played the original Indycar, Viper, Monster Truck Racing, GPL, RBR, ...you name it. My first PC games were all on 5.25 discs. I actually used a 300 baud modem for a time. And, I was among the many to be blown away by 1200 and 1440 baud modems. So, I have experienced netcode from its' inception. At present, I think the best simulation physics/handling titles are AMS2, and AC. (ACC, rf2, iRacing have all contributed to what we have now). But I appreciate both Simulation and Arcade racing titles. And, I can definitely feel the WRC influences here although I was never really a fan of those titles. In contrast, I preferred RBR and DR 2.0 though I loved loved loved the hillclimbs in DR 1.0.
In addition, over my many years, I have been fortunate enough to enjoy and/or experience many real life race cars and resto mods. My driving history includes early offroad race cars, the widowmaker, various pickle forks, and much more. And, despite all of that, I have never left one destroyed at the side of the road, or under water in the lake or the ocean.
With all of that said, I grant you that the first impression of physics and handling in TDUSC is/was largely underwhelming. It was to me as well. I even chuckled when I heard others describe it as simcade; however, after you have been able to discretely tune, test and retest (which you have to do because the tuning is waaay off real world tuning), TDU's physics/handling sensations DO properly come alive. If I could, I would happily place you in my Motion Rig so you could experience it the same way. To that end, if you find yourself in the islands one day, feel free to DM me.
I have no desire to demean or belittle. This just happens to be something I really enjoy and something I would love to share.
Lucky you. Motion rig would be super dope, but they cost a pretty penny...
Oh, a well reasoned response.
Perhaps you could provide the basis for your claim(s). You base this on what experience exactly?
How many racing titles have you played? How deeply have you explored those titles should you wish to compare to them. I DO see TWO racing titles in your Steam list and, unsurprisingly, they don't currently include TDUSC.
So, how about you expend some of that negative energy and explain what sim titles do you prefer and why?
Likewise, hat arcade titles do you prefer and why?
What specific force feedback equipment do you use to race on them? I use an Accuforce Pro V2 Direct Drive Wheel, Fanatec Handbrake, Fanatec CSP v2 pedals, Project D shifter, and Next Level Racing Motion System. Previously, of course, I have used everything from early Thrustmaster wheels with the bungie cord and roller pedals to the vaunted Logitech G25, Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel, and many others. My gear is several years old at this point but VERY well used.
Note: it is perfectly okay if you only race with thumbsticks as, unfortunately, that is all the vast majority have available. But, you have to admit that it IS far more difficult to appreciate a physics model/handling model, whether arcade, sim or simcade, when all you do is tap-tap-tap, jam-jam-jam, rather than actual analog steering. That said, I know people who can do it so whom am I to say otherwise.
Other helpful background might include YOUR real life driving and/or racing experience?
At least tell us how many hours YOU have playing TDUSC? I would note your Steam racing history is remarkably short. Don't forget we can look that stuff up....
Lastly, why would you ever dismissively poop all over an arcade racing title for non simulation level handling? Note: I am not saying that folk cannot legitimately poop on TDUSC for poorly optimized graphics, or the original atrocious level of server stability, or even the failure to grasp what was so special about the original Test Drive series.
The fact is Sim Racing is a niche hobby with a niche market. Until and unless we can entice others to join, our hobby WILL stagnate. We saw this over a decade ago with the LOSS of force feedback joysticks and wheels in the marketplace.
I acknowledge that the cost of entry in our niche hobby is still fairly high. Though anyone who has done numerous Track days in real life knows just how comparatively cheap it can be... How fast do you think folks like me can burn through four competition tires on a track day? Let me tell you that can burn a whole in your wallet faster than an a modest offshore boat.
I would argue that it is the Pandemic AND Arcade racing games, including GT7, that have brought the greatest gains to our hobby. So, when I find a decent arcade physics model, the last thing I would do is trash it or dismiss it for being Arcade. The problem has been that arcade physics/handling models have gone precipitously downhill over the last decade. See for example the de-evolution that occurred in arcade physics and handling models from the relative highpoint of Dirt Rally 1 (and DR 2.0) all the way down to the basement level of Dirt 5. Or, see the change from Porsche Unleashed to any "remade/updated" NFS of today. In both cases, the physics/handling models got substantially worse over time. Wheels weren't even supported in the more "modern" NFS titles.
In the sim racing world, many of us have been spoiled by some amazing physics and handling models but what we consider amazing based on our own driving experiences is often too high a bar for your average arcade racers to cross. So, when I find a physics/handling model that does begin to bridge the gap, I think we are far better off giving it the recognition it deserves. And, in my opinion, TDUSC, Nakon, and KT Racing deserve recognition for physics and handling even if it isn't at our elitist simulation level.
My overly long-winded and unspoken goal above is simply to point out the irony of casually assuming experience and/or lack thereof in making overly conclusive or perhaps broadly dismissive statements when describing the quality of software some of us hope to enjoy.
Our gaming hobby depends on continued successes, as well as the acknowledgment of unabashed failures (like the launch of TDUSC before it was fully baked.) So, I will always acknowledge that posters have every right to express their negative opinions. Those negative opinions, at least in my mind, are not cause for offense. But, in and of themselves, they don't really accomplish anything.
So, I encourage posters, whether positive or negative, to provide a foundation for those opinions so that others may learn from them, especially when they disagree with the position stated. Obviously, foundations aren't always required, but if you are gonna call somebody (or somebody's opinion) on the carpet for what they said, you should be able to explain the reasoning behind it.
Moreover, somebody said Motorfest was actually good on a wheel. Even though I may disagree, the fact is I will undoubtedly go back and give it another shot in light of that opinion. As I see it, I have nothing to lose by doing so and everything to gain.
And, to reiterate, I wouldn't hesitate to put any of the above posters in my motion rig in my own home to experience what TDUSC and so many other games can offer just for comparison's sake... if given the chance.
It is the combination of knowledge and experience that informs change, both positive and negative. And, we could definitely use more positive change in this particular racing genre.
Try liftoff oversteer a FWD in TDUSC and see what happens? Nothing. But you probably don't even know what I'm talking about.
Enough of the BS. Anyone who is actually experienced in real life race or sports driving won't even try to discuss the "handling model" or even say anything about "tuning" of this completely arcade game. Someone is imagining things, both about the game and about reality.
Critique all you want... but put your own experience there so we have an actual basis for comparison.
So, lets compare notes:
I grew up in a drag racing family. My father owned a machine shop and he and his best friend ran H&O racing on the side. (You'd know it if you knew early Pontiac enthusiasts). Anyway, they actually managed a world record in my dad's 1973 Pontiac Trans AM.
My scariest experience with lift off oversteer is in a white slantnose 1977 Porsche Turbo (Whale Tail) Carrerra. Years ago, there was a multilane section on the 91 Freeway that was closed for a rather long time when it was being expanded to two or three lanes. In that section, I had the opportunity to open the "widowmaker" up. And, I got to learn very quickly that Mickey Thompson's offroad racing rule of thumb wasn't too far off the mark. Moreover, when you find yourself partially out of shape, sometimes your best option is to mash the throttle. in that specific car when entering a corner on the high speed side of caution, if you begin to lift off, weight shifts forward, and as a result, you can easily lose traction in the rear. Failure to react fast enough by re-mashing the throttle, in that car, could easily result with front end swapping to where the back end was... That is how the car gained the industry nickname. "Widowmaker"
Now, I first drove a racecars at 16 when my father brought home a class 2 offroad sandrail modified to 1835cc (a big deal back in the day). In that car, I learned to drive a manual transmission. It was fully caged, 5 point harness, nets, etc. And, I loved that car. I drove the wheels off of it. It is THE car that got me addicted to going sideways. It was fricken glorious. And, consistent with my attitude today, I was always happy to take neighbors and parents of friends for rides.
Oh, should probably add that we rebuilt that slant-nose "Whale Tail" Porsche after hours at my father's machine shop. It was one among many cars we built over the years. Some of the cars even ended up on the pages of Hot Rod or Car Craft Magazine. Keep in mind at the time, I was just a kid turning a wrench. But that is how you learn...
As for FWD cars, I am not really a fan for racing. In fact, my only FWD racing is limited to a little SCCA action in a 97 Sentra SER Spec V. But, my very first car was front wheel drive. It was a white automatic (ugh) Volkswagon Rabbit. It was followed by a rather mundane silver Chevrolet Citation X-11. My next car was stripped/crashed 1978 El Camino we rebuilt.
I could go on of course, but let's hear from you instead... But, the fact is I have always loved driving cars both real and simulated. I have also spent a fair amount of time driving boats on lakes and offshore.
Long story short: I understand your skepticism. To some extent it is even healthy, But, it isn't always correct. The fact is some of us old farts actually like sharing our experiences with others. And, some like myself DO have the knowledge and experience to make relevant observations, even if it is only about an arcade racing game. Even so, I make mistakes like anyone else. And, I appreciate and invite well reasoned contrary views.
While in TDUSC, a game which someone claims to have a good driving model, shows zero response from a proper liftoff oversteer maneuver. This fact alone is sufficient to prove this game's driving model is arcade and tailored to gamepad kids' taste, no matter how someone who claims himself good in real life driving love it.
Obviously, I have yet to find a driving model that simulates real life. There are always trade offs for simplicity's sake.
The hope, for me at least, is to find a driving model which is enjoyable and recreates the sensations and reactions necessary to keep a car on the edge as long as possible.
Consistent with your opinion and mine, lift off oversteer on a front wheel drive car is, at least in my experience, a non factor. Assuming the reaction isn't exaggerated, for instance, to disingenuously simulate drifting in a FWD car, I have to admit it wouldn't have much effect on my opinion of the physics or handling model. A far better test, for me, would involve lift off oversteer in ANY older RWD, rear engine car.
Be that as it may, if, a cutting edge, more realistic driving model ultimately becomes available in a mass market racing game, I"ll be a very happy man. I was blown away the first time I tried iRacing in VR. At that point, I figured we had finally made solid unerring progress towards racing simulation. I was wrong.
So, while we have come a long way from the early days of things like CM RAlly and Screamer, we still have a very long way to go. I just don't want to see the simulations get progressively worse again. (A reference to the demise of Codemasters and all modern NFS games among too many others). Teams like those of Kunos need to be supported or they break up and the skills for creating a physics and handling model get lost among the industry. I am not putting KT Racing on the same level as Kunos, but I still want to see experienced coders get the chance to improve over time. I personally dont want to see the relevant Nacon/KT Racing coders terminated from in the industry.
So you're looking for an arcade. Sega's outrun does that.
Anyone with actual racing and sports driving experience will tell you liftoff oversteer is not a non factor, but a huge factor and an essential, almost basic skill for any proper racing driver.
See? This is where you show you don't know much about real life racing. We're not talking about drifting here. We're talking about a basic cornering technique for many FWD and modern AWD and even some modern factory specs RWD.
When entering a corner on throttle, a car may understeer especially many FWD. If the throttle is then "lift off" the engine braking is applied to the front wheels, the weight will transfer to the front, the rear end may break loose, and if performed well, the rear end will slide outward and the front end of the car is pointing faster to the exit of the corner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7DcxqqnoxM&t=19m30s
See his whole lap starts from 19m30s. And say it again someone said he is a race driver? What a joker.
This is a very common and efficient technique for racing. Definitely not a non factor or anyone trying to get some fun "drifting" in an arcade game. Maybe for gamepad kids it is.
And in TDUSC, no sorry, no liftoff oversteer, because there's no sophisticated driving model here. You'll just slow down, that's it.
How is it "far better"? Once again you just showed you don't know real driving. All you did was try to say something looks more sophisticated without actually admitting the driving model of this game, the very model you enjoyed and said is good, is actually very arcadeish and simple and made for gamepad kid. Liftoff oversteer is an essential skill for many modern FWD or AWD cars, it is a skill required to race. Lifeoff oversteer on an old 911 we don't call it a skill, we call it a mistake. It is two completely different scenarios. Any game can lose control and spin a RWD car, well maybe not the arcades kids play, but only good driving game let you pull off a controlled liftoff oversteer on a corner. Learn, and actually know what you're talking about, before pretending to know something.
I've never and will never get blown away by any racing simulators or games because I actually do go to real race tracks including the track shown in the aforementioned YT video. I was blown away the first time the engine blown away and there was no coolant left afterwards.
Once again, it shows. If you actually know the racing industry you should have no worry. Racing teams are involving more and more in the development of simulators and real racing drivers are practicing on simulators for the sake of safety and cost saving. Not to mention we now have more and more eracing events and competitions and many are sponsored by actual racing industry. KT has no business in simulators, their "games" are arcadeish and simcade at most. TDUSC is an arcadeish driving game, and a poorly done one. Anyone actually know real life racing won't take this game seriously.
Not a fan of any political figure but Barack Obama once said youngsters would regret one day if they talked too much about their personal life on internet.
It's the internet. Anyone can claim anything or claim himself to be anyone. What people will look into is whether their claim correlated and corresponded with their comments. In this case, the answer is obvious.
Before this game I've never said anything on steam forum. The only reason I'm even on this forum, is because this game is set in a city that I'm interested in. Since this game is dead and only a handful of delusional kids are defending this game for whatever reasons, I think I've seen enough. Goodbye.
My second response: Still stuck on the first response.
My third response: Physically, I know there is substance to what you are saying; however, I would hate to have to rely on that when racing. In my 6th gen Camaro, a little throttle will not only offset minor levels of understeer but it also allows for drifting, power slides, and radical corrections. in contrast, the lift off over steer you are referencing (FWD) has only minimal corrective effect. I suppose it might have more effect in a poorly setup car, or when the suspension is really heavily loaded after one has thrown their car hard into a corner. But, I will always prefer a RWD car so that I can use the throttle to do everything from minor corrections to opposite lock for days.
On fresh tires, My little [FWD] Sentra was setup to turn like it was on rails. And, while it felt like it was on rails, that car contorted quite a bit to do what I asked. They photographed me more than once with only three tires on the ground in hard turns
And, while, perhaps unconsciously. I may have lifted some to help corner, it was never really required. In contrast, I have, of course, all but THROWN the rear end out on my FWD Sentra SER V Spec II, but only when a fair degree of violence was required to make a last second, tight, quick corner through marked cones. That said, I will readily admit that it was an overly crude technique, but it worked... about half of the time. And, it was definitely neither safe enough nor reliable enough to use in or near any kind of traffic, racing or otherwise.
Lastly, I am sorry for the flippant response, but in my day one could not claim driving experience on a FWD car without being laughed off the track. Keep in mind, hot hatches weren't really a thing. The closest we got to hot hatches were the overly discrete, but wildly effective, 4wd Rabbits. Cannot recall the model at the moment. And, on those, like most of the early 4wd cars, I drove, you were better off adding throttle to help pull the car around rather than lifting off to achieve a similar purpose.
For many years, I dailied an Eagle Talon Turbo Tsi, 4wd. It was an absolute hoot in the rain. It was also the sister car to the Mitsubishi Eclipse and far more agile than the contemporary Mitsubishi GT VR4...
But, I digress. Now I am going back to the first point.
Either way, thanks for playing.
FWD cars have been dominated WTCC / WTCR, the highest class of touring car racing sanctioned by FIA, for two decades. In fact all of the current TCR specs cars are FWD. Pretty sure any of these cars will blow any Camaro away.
It takes skills, knowing the track, and proper setup of the car. Obviously the world is much bigger than some might think.
Hot hatches, and FWD performance cars, have been a thing for almost 4 decades. FWD race cars have dominated many race disciplines for at least 2 decades.
But, for a kid who knows little about real racing but only play video games, he may not know, because most video games are all about supercars, and rarely feature FWD cars and race cars. Kids like to dream right?
I've no intention to argue whether FWD or AWD or RWD drive or race better. Nobody care what cars a stranger on internet likes or dislikes.
My example of FWD liftoff oversteer test was merely for the purpose to demonstrate how arcadeish and simple the driving model of TDUSC is, and that model is clearly tailored to the taste of gamepad kids. There is no in-depth physics and simulation in this game. And the driving is boring since most cars drive like a 2.5 tons Tesla. But the good news is, a gamepad kid can go fast, and maybe drift too, because this is a game and it is meant to be fun right? For a kid it is. For an adult with actual race experience? Unlikely. Well unless what we have here, is well, forget it.
Being ignorant is ok on a forum filled with kids. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. I shall leave for good now, enjoy your video game kid.
I'll give the handling a 6/10 for an arcade, 1/10 for a sim. The map I give it a 5/10. Since all of the other aspects are like 2/10 or 3/10, so yes the car handling is the "best" part of the game.