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What's misleading? We don't know how long it was between their discovery of immortality and their falling out. As you said, Aephorul had been the Fleshmancer long before they split up and Re'shan finds it so shocking that he had been acting that way "centuries earlier" than he thought that he promptly leaves the group.
We really only know a few hard points in the timeline:
- The Alchemists discover immortality
- They had a falling out and became antagonistic towards each other.
- Re'shan split the timelines.
We know they happen in that order, but without any idea how much time passes between them. Re'shan mentions "centuries", so we know it takes place over a long period, but is otherwise vague.
Can you link me to the scenes? Because I know he mentions it being Aephorul's workshop, but I thought he said it because he recognized the handiwork, not because he'd been there before.
Re'shan has zero reason to lie about not having visited the world, and B'st chastises him later on for believing that he's older than B'st is. If Re'shan had been there before, he should know how old the Lost Ones are.
(A complete aside brought on by typing "Re'shan" and "B'st" so much, I heavily dislike this game's use of apostrophes in names. They don't add anything and are a blight on the fantasy genre. Please stop doing it, fantasy authors.)
Fun little sidenote:
In the german translation B'st is actually spelled out "Biest" because the german pronunciation of the letter "B" would not make it to sound like "beast".
"Biest" however is pronounced exactly like beast.
It would be great if someone could tell me exactly where this is said so I know I'm not being gaslit and I actually missed it.
I just wasted a lot of time in cutscenes from Garl's quest all the way to Resh'an leaving the puppet, and couldn't find it, but did find the exact part where B'st assumes the alchemist never visited. I'm not saying Resh'an has some big reason to hide his identity from B'st. He simply never spills the beans on anything to anyone unless it suits his grand goals.
It's not later on and it's not chastising. All of that is in the same cutscene. He can name "songster magic" immediately after realizing what just happened. Now he knows which "forgotten race" his prophecy of living glass was about. He knew about them. Probably from long before he was even immortal. Because he's from that world.
I didn't say he's "lying about not having visited the world." I said he already said he recognized it. AND Abstarak recognizes the Great Eagle.
B'st sings at the entrance to the Spires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6HRr55q-6M&t=3924s
Resh'an: "Songster magic... Impossible"
B'st: "Did you think I was younger than you?"
Resh'an: "..."
B'st: "Great alchemist, if my understanding is correct, you have never visited this world before. You should be warned about the cultists. Their origins - "
Then Seraï interrupts him, so we don't learn who created the cult until after the Triumvirate.
But we do already know that he knows the world because just before meeting B'st he says the complex used to be one of Aephorul's workshops.
After the Triumvirate fight, Resh'an is a mess because he just found out the cult was the source of his Great Eagle. Abstarak recognizes him and talks about their religion sacrifcing "what is necessary" to give him flight. And we know from the cutscene right after that "a hybrid's soul" was needed for the transmutation.
Clearly, him getting the Great Eagle has to precede him knowing that Aephorul is into fleshmancy. And that clearly precedes him splitting any timelines, both in the ARG text I linked and in Teaks' story in the game.
If Seraï's world is not the original, you need to explain why Aephorul is traveling between worlds (which we know haven't even been split yet!) to set up this cult in another world for a gift.
"Their experiments got out of control and they had a falling out" is not at all what happened. There isn't any point where Aephorul is not in control. And Resh'an not only isn't experimenting with anything irresponsible, he doesn't know anything bad is going on yet. You're making it sound like they both did it.
Valere: "Resh'an did you know? (Meduso)
Resh'an: "... This world is unkown to me. I wish I could say the same of Aephorul's ways..."
https://youtu.be/_ZLFsZ_Q-bM?si=jmW8I7S40I5PKQv5&t=63377
Apparently this world is not the original. But when you do split timelines there will be overlaps. It seems that Serai's world overlaps a lot with the original timeline. Valere's and Zale's world on the other hand seems to have a lot of differences.
a.) The bird tribe (not yet the Triumvirate btw.) also happens to be there in the original timeline. After the split multiple timelines have been created BASED on the original timeline. So again: There will be overlaps. They all start at the same point and have the same past. Only with time these timelines will differ from each other. Which is exactly what Resh'an is researching in the Archives.
b.) There is more going on that we don't know. Maybe Resh'an only split his pocket of the universe and there were other realities out there all along. Maybe Aephorul could visit some of those (Serai's world) through a portal. But according to Sabotage this is not true:
"Meanwhile, Aephorul rejoiced (after the timeline split by Resh'an) at the seemingly infinite potential for destruction he had just been offered."
HOWEVER a.) creates one big problem. If the bird tribe exists in more than one world than Resh'an and Aeopherul exist in more than one too. Are there infinite amounts of Flashmancers flying around in the universe? Clearly this version of multiple realities is not what Sabotage Studios had in mind.
So if Serai's world is not the original world and Aephorul works with the bird tribe this could mean b.) is correct or
c.) Resh'an is flat out lying or
d.) This is a plot hole or
e.) Serai's world is a planet from the original timeline. So no travel between realites from Aephorul - just interplanetary travel :D Yes this raises the question why Resh'an doesn't know this world since there is a solstice shrine so he must have dropped of some children of the solstice on this world. But if you do that for so long on so many planets I feel like it's okay to not remember every single one.
The only thing that we know for sure from the flashback is that Resh'an and Aephorul once lived on the same planet in the same universe before the split. How Aephorul obtained the souls from the birds seems to be his secret. Either way I'm going with e.).
All throughout the 'home world' lore they talk of the 'ovates' who created the world, guardians, etc... These things are implied to exist before Reshan split, or... something. It really doesn't make sense at all.
Also Serai's world is implied (as people above) have stated to be older than the split and possibly older than even Reshan/Aeph.
It's also stated that Reshan is creating the solstice warriors, so how are planets he hasn't visited getting shrines and the sun blocked out/moon sunk into the sea?
In The Messenger AFAIK the guys in the hooded robes are the good guys (messengers from other times) stuck in some out of time dimension. And yet we see Aeph running around in hooded robes looking EXACTLY like them... so WTF!??
Things just aren't adding up.
You post almost this exact same thing in every story discussion and I don't really see where it doesn't make sense.
It's pretty firmly established that at least one world existed before Re'shan and Aephorul became what they are. Both through the creation myths of Home world and the implications that Serai's world is older. And... it makes perfect sense. Re'shan and Aephorul are not gods. They didn't create the worlds. In fact, because they gained immortality through their own efforts, they had to have been normal mortals at some point - meaning they were born and grew up on an existing world.
Re'shan is deeply involved with the Solstice Warriors on Home world, but we don't actually know if the rituals are the same everywhere. It's highly likely they aren't, since Re'shan can't be everywhere delivering Solstice babies all the time. Home world is seriously implied to be a pet project of his - his tower is located there, he delivers the babies personally, and he was involved in setting up several of the cultures around the world like the Sky Giants and the Doccari. We see a mirror of this on Serai's world, where Aephorul has his fortress and was behind the Birdmen, the Sky Base, and the Catalyst.
It's not a complete story, Sabotage has been pretty clear they intend to make more games in this setting, but it's not a mess either. We just don't have all the pieces yet, so there's a lot of unanswered questions. I'm personally not enamored with this kind of long form storytelling since games take so long to release, but it's not dissimilar from something like The Stormlight Archives or Lord of the Rings. Multiple books and if you don't have the complete series, you're going to feel like things are missing.
I don't think of the timeline splits as a million branches out of one single point where he first succeeded in the manipulation. I think of it as him traveling to many different eras. Every time he touches anything he makes intentional changes and unintentional ones, from various points in time, creating new timelines. And because the branching occurs at different points, we get bigger or smaller divergences over the aeons.
The information becomes so overwhelming he gets completely lost and needs to build a giant library just to keep track. He goes incognito and tries to change as little as possible, traveling around and writing book by book.
Then he learns that he missed Zale and Valere's potential and decides to make one more change: letting them in. Ugh. How does he gather his info? Does he have to see them knocking on the door in person then decide "screw them" and write that down, and write down they died later? What did he have to see to decide they had more potential than he initially thought? Are his puppets hidden everywhere? Then why does he need to do anything personally?
But you have me convinced at this point that maybe it's not the original world. And if it is, it doesn't matter, so I'll abandon that belief for now. I like the story a bit less now. It's not poetic. We're not returning to the source. Just one of a million imperfect copies of it and it's all insignificant. We're not breaking a cycle. We're just one example of a world (whatever that means) where SWs win over Dwellers.
But now I'm way more excited about the stuff I missed and didn't connect, and the stuff that'll come in DLC and other games.
I'm against b). If there were other parallel worlds before the first split, Aephorul definitely learns to travel between these only after Resh'an splits them. And Aephorul can definitely time travel as well. He's sending the Acolytes, Strife and Bru into a very distant future (The Messenger).
Wait a damn minute... Why can he time travel? Their pact is:
"To find some measure of peace amidst their immortal conflict, the two alchemists made a pact to let the fate of each timeline play out on its own."
EXCEPT BOTH OF THEM ARE UNIQUE AND BEYOND TIME - BOTH CAN TIME TRAVEL AND PUT THEIR MINIONS ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME TO CHANGE EVERY OUTCOME THEY DON'T LIKE... I like the story less now. Kind of makes every story totally irrelevant in the grand scheme. We just see the perspective of non-time-traveling mortals in one example world where Aephorul gets kicked out. Guess maybe that was the point. Okay. Fair enough.
Or maybe he's confused. Maybe the world is simply unrecognizable to him in so many ways due to the sun being blotted out and the fall of the Moon having changed so much geography. Also the technology and weather changed. He hasn't seen it since before it became hell. He definitely built a shrine there, or multiple that got destroyed. It could be the original, but unfortunately it doesn't matter now.
Yeah, we are presented with only one Resh'an and Aephorul and not told why they're immune to being copied for each new world.
Army of Optimists has the best stance in this whole discussion: fk multiverse settings.
I'll try to be more charitable than to assume that, at least until I've exhausted all the info I can find in more playthroughs and side material.
So there's 4 giant Piccolo statues where we enter the Sea of Stars in both worlds. Should we look at that only as interplanetary travel systems made by those giants or whoever came before them, and definitely not the same planet in another timeline? I don't recognize other geographical features, but the Moon falling would change that completely.
Seraï is human. Or was. If it's interplanetary travel, why are humans so much less technologically advanced on Home World? Did they just crash and have to start from scratch? That would be cool if we had a hint how they got there.
And why would solstice magic work for only one moon and sun? As soon as we abandon the idea of it all being versions of one planet and its pagan mythological conception of the cosmos, we have to start asking how solstice magic works technically. What happens on planets with 3 suns and 11 moons? Is every sun and moon connected to a deity created by whoever runs the cosmos?
Agreed. I'll go with e) and Resh'an forgetting or not recognizing it.
You're adding a lot to make the pieces match up. 597's pointed out many of the issues I have with it.
Right, but the problem is there's contradictions about which one. The ovates/guardians I don't read as just being a 'pet project of Reshan'. It seems to me they existed before he was even around. He might have manipulated them, but I get no where that he created them (I don't know if he even could, since he's clearly not a god). But then also Serai's world must have been around before the 'split' as well.
So to get around that you have to imagine all the worlds already existed prior, and the 'split' didn't happen, or that someone is an unreliable narrator. Reshan 'forgetting' also seems to be bad writing. It's not established prior to that point that he forgets things (in particular an entire world that is crucial to the plot).
I agree with all this ^^. The entire story, as presented, doesn't make sense if there are many worlds that weren't created through the split. Why would they have portals to each other? Why does the 'sea of stars' portal contain time shards (heavily implying it exists due to Reshan's split/magic, time shards are also the currency of The Messenger).
Aeph does imply that this has happened numerous time before, not just the once or twice on home planet. So much so that he doesn't even consider fighting them and just laughs them off to jump off to another planet. They talk multiple times about guardians and ascension and it's implied guardians/ascension isn't needed multiple times for a single world/planet.
I've read all the LOTR including the Silmarillion. This isn't that. They clearly made mistakes, tried to cram two completely different stories together and wound up with problems. To fix it they're going to have to retcon something. Not to mention, there are a LOT of plot-holes in The Hobbit that were later ret-conned (so much so it's hard to really take The Hobbit seriously).
Something's going to get pulled out of thin air to connect the dots. My guess is 'LOL TIME TRAVEL!!!'.
"... This world is unknown to me" - could also mean that it is unknown to him what happened to this world.
As for planets with 11 moons: It is a fantasy world. Each planet has 1 moon and 1 sun. Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be.
It adds lots of complexity and information that becomes difficult for the writer to stay on top of to iron out contradictions. The complexity and stress of multitasking is what makes the audience more emotional and hungry for a resolution. But a logical resolution doesn't come.
That's fine for the more social-intelligence types in the audience who will ignore the logic and focus more on how each character must have felt with all these problems and distances multiplied to way beyond the ones possible in the real world.
Us more pedantic people here get caught up in the contradictions and get the false impression we'll love the emotional character driven story even more if we could just somehow solve these math problems. But we can't solve contradictory systems.
It's like reincarnation romance. Ok, these same two people met in a thousand lifetimes and it was tragic every time. THEN they finally had a happy life together. It feels more powerful to most people than Romeo and Juliet. But all you did was take a simple concept and multiply it to overload people. It wasn't necessarily executed well, yet it works.
Huh? Why to the future? Forgive me my Messenger Lore is a bit rusty but isn't he just sending them to a different universe? They just happened to be there when we play the Messenger. The Flashmancer is not dropping them of right before the game starts. They were there for thousands of years prior.
edit:
I'm wrong again. He says "Let's make sure you're not needed for a long time". So he can't time travel. He's just making them wait until SWs are out of the picture.
Doesn't explain why the hell creating new timelines doesn't create new copies of Aeph and Resh. Is this what them making an attempt on the "Sands of Time" or something meant back in the birthday cutscene? And why are there time shards in the SoS?
But now this has me intrigued. Maybe Aeph can't travel between these alt dimensions either. Maybe his portals are ONLY spatial, like the ones Seraï and the Acolytes are already using. So Seraï's world is not in another dimension.
That would make it more significant that Aeph gets kicked out of a world.
But then again! If he can't travel between these timelines, why did Resh opening up many timelines give Aeph "infinite number of opportunities for destruction that had just opened up to him.
We plug one hole, and the ship leaks through 3 more.
If Aeph is in a different universe when Resh breaks their Deal, how does he know instantly and travel over? How would he know instantly even if it was the same world? Is their policing of each other's adherence to the pact perfect? By what mechanism?
So if Aeph is kicked from one world, and then Resh violates the deal, can Aeph still appear in it to complain and demand his one hit?
Yup. 9/10 times it comes off as lazy writing. 'LOL ITS ALL BACK TO NORMAL!!'... All stakes, all tension, all meaning, growth or significance wiped away in one fell swoop.
Also the multiverse scenario also has another issue. Aeph talking to Resh says something along the lines of 'have you told them/what happens when you undo/reform the multiverse'. If 'home world' was the OG planet, why would they care or need to be told? In fact that statement opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to the multiverse interpretation... I can think of about 1000 different ways the 'multiverse' could be interpreted it, and they all have issues/contradictions.
I'm sticking with the whole 'I don't think they thought this through' interpretation.
Aephorul: "I am not losing the Dweller of Strife again. Acolytes. Are you prepared to serve for all eternity?"
One: "We desire nothing more."
Aephorul: "Then leave now alongside my dearest creation, and in TIME I will see to your transformation. Yes... the four of you will be merged with the Dweller to become its conscience. In the distand future you shall return togehter as one--the king of a new race!"
Could imply that the transformation takes a long time like the Dwellers need to feed on their worlds forever to become a World Eater. Or you are right and I am wrong :D.
To come back to the idea that Serai's world is a planet of the original timeline. Aephorul's secret (which he doesn't want to tell Resh'an) could be that he successfully reached the inhabitants of a different planet. While I do believe that he went there personally it's never implied AFAIK that didn't do it telepathically.
I also just makes too much sense that he would build his lair on a planet on which he already controlled one of the three (humans, B'st's and the birds) tribes and that is close to his home world (the place from the flashback).
BTW Resh'an tells Aephorul that he thinks the party will be able to drive him out from his CURRENT stronghold. Implying this is just where he is "living" at the moment.
Aephorul: "You know as well as I do that these lives are lost anyway once you recompose the timelines."
This is why I believe that in this games universe different timelines are really completly different. Meaning there is no pair of the same character like in Bioshock Infinite. Merging them back together would likely kill almost everyone.