How deep is the manpower system?

[Lanzor_Roznal]

Still quite new to the game, so I am just trying to understand it a bit more.

In any War/Politic game, I really really love Manpower mechanics as it adds a sense of urgency and drama to engagements. The idea that a nation's finite supply of humans are being lost as each turn passes adds an almost tragic or cinematic experience. It also REALLY helps me figure out what kind of strategies I should be employing.

If I recall right, Manpower is distributed through out the armed forces, and that manpower slowly increases overtime and with captured territory. This makes sense as in my mind it is men turning 18, or new people being conscripted from conquered territories.

Howevet, my main question is, is it *actually* finite? Could you potentially wipe out a nations recruitable population, and they couldn't send any more to the fight no mattet how much (empty) trrritory they held? I know it is a very very very rare situation that most likely would never been seen, but it is the best way to frame asking how deep is manpower?

Any and all information about the manpower system would be deeply appreciated!

[A Corsican Frog]

Hi

Sure

In this game, as opposed to HOI4 for example, manpower is both a finite and infinite pool

It is a limited resource, but that doesn't really properly 'end'

You basically have your pool of manpower, but it is more of like 'what can be fielded at once'

So, if your unit dies, the manpower gets added back to the pool, not really realistic, I know, but for gameplay purposes, and given the scale or length of some scenarios, it is for the best or else you would simply run out of manpower entirely in just a few turns and then you could not complete anything

And yes, your max available manpower raises every month, it is about 2% of the base available manpower that gets added every month

Conquering new lands will allow you to use some of those occupied lands manpower, but not to their full potential, you are an occupier :)

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask here

[Lanzor_Roznal]

I see! So it is a bit like an online game. When manpower is "lost" it is like a player dying and respawning. 30 players are the soft cap (more and join in later), and everytime they die they can respawn back to the waiting area, and can choose new roles.

It is a crude allegory, but I think that makes sense right? Manpower cycles itselfs, it isn't like Pops being depleted in a Paradox game.

Assuming I got it right, I am thankful for your answer! It helps alot :)

[Lanzor_Roznal]

I will say as a possible request, maybe someday in a future update you can have a limited manpower option? You brought the reason why the game is this way is to prevent players from not being able to do anything because they ran out of manpower. I personally adore when this happens as it feels very climatic wether I am on the giving or receiving end of it!

Perhaps each faction starts with a finite pool of manpower, (Make it generous so it lasts awhile) and it will run out eventually at one point. Keeping the original manpower raise, and boosts though to help slow down the burn.

All a request and suggestion as an option though, so please do not feel pressured. I understand if it would go against your game design or be complicated to program. :)

[ANDREWRANTA (vayasen)]

I also think the manpower given is very generous and think it could be a little more restrictive. Playing Europe for example, I could build loads more units than I am using and winning with...and it dosnt matter if I lose a '6th army' kind of thing as it gets added back anyway. Maybe losses shouldnt get added back in? Just thoughts.

[Lanzor_Roznal]

Originally posted by ANDREWRANTA (vayasen):

I also think the manpower given is very generous and think it could be a little more restrictive. Playing Europe for example, I could build loads more units than I am using and winning with...and it dosnt matter if I lose a '6th army' kind of thing as it gets added back anyway. Maybe losses shouldnt get added back in? Just thoughts.

I very much second this. Half of the fun of a strategy game is the moments where you can say, "X has sent us all she has. We have no more men after this. We must end the war now!"

It adds a very heavy loss to suffering large loss of manpower as even if you recruit more soldiers, you did take a hit in your finite pool of bodies as massive as it is, it is running lower and lower as time goes on.

[Raoule]

Indeed!
Loosing a unit or disbanding and reinstating is pretty easy to exploit atm and does not reflect the warfare back then perfectly IMO too.
Getting back FULL manpower/cash amount (or the difference if downgrading) is not optimal. While i see the problem with depleted manpower, i still have to say its part of any war conflict and should be included in our game as a more limited ressource if having very high casualties.
Not sure how it could work better... Maybe getting only a fraction of cash and the manpower like 5-10 turns later would already add more realism here and should not let you run dry, only temporary and also only if you have very high losses in very short time period (which seems realistic on the other hand then).
I know, its not very welcome for the dev, but a "not endless ressources" setting for these mechanics would be VERY much in favour for most of the community and would make our game even better!

[A Corsican Frog]

Yes I could add a “finite manpower” setting

I just need to find a way to make it balanced

Currently manpower doesn’t grow fast enough

What I am even more worries about is the AI, they will be the most penalized from this as they are a bit more reckless than a human players, and they lose units way more often

So, yeah, it’s gonna be a challenge to balance this

But I am not against the option, as it would only make sense to have it a finite resource

[Raoule]

Can you make it player only or less impacting on AI? ( I know its anoying, but still have to ask after you answered about your AI concerns, sorry...)
Like AI easy has same rules as human, ai normal gets 75% the "penalty", hard 50% and extreme like no penalty (old system with full refunds for combat losses)?

[Lanzor_Roznal]

The manpower issue does lend itself to an odd situation where if uou desteoy an enemy battalion, you can't realistically say "Well, there are now 3 thousand less italians in the world." As they in reality just got up from the dirt, walked all the way home, and reenlisted in the military.

Originally posted by THCder_raoule:

Can you make it player only or less impacting on AI? ( I know its anoying, but still have to ask after you answered about your AI concerns, sorry...)
Like AI easy has same rules as human, ai normal gets 75% the "penalty", hard 50% and extreme like no penalty (old system with full refunds for combat losses)?

While I like this idea, I do warn to be very careful connecting the Manpower to difficulty, as I am sure many players will wish to tweak the specific manpower settinga aside from the income settings. It is a big reason why my specific request is to have a FINITE manpower toggle, as I am not totally against the old system either. I think it should remain too those who both enjoy and prefer it.

I also wish to remark to not worry too much about balance, as part of the fun of finite manpower is the imbalance that occurs as the campaign goes on, and the unique situations of each country. Some examples are how much more manpower the Soviets or Chinese have, Germany needing to occupy more territory to keep its military in any large and fighting shape, and of course...the entire Eastern Front.

Obviously, any changes will take time so we are not trying to pressure you, the developer. Just saying what we would like to very much see in the future if possible. The game is already near perfect, and I think it could be even closer with a more rigid manpower system (that is optional)