Market Garden

[Steevodeevo]

Hi Val and fellow Grogs.

Market Garden is one of my favourite scenarios to play in any war game of this style.
I've played quite a few 'takes' of it in different engines and by different designers but my favourite still remains an ancient Amiga game (https://amiga.abime.net/games/view/arnhem-the-market-garden-operation) which I see (I think) is available to emulate for PC if you can get it to work.,, anyway, I digress ...

The best Market Garden games utilise the tension and excitement of the time restriction of the actual historical Operation itself which required the Brit and Polish Paras' to hang on in Arnhem and keep the bridge open for the hoped for advancing forces to reach and cross into Germany's heartland. Similarly for the US Rangers and Airborne forces on the bridges on the way to Arnhem. In the meantime the British XXX Corps are grinding their way up the highways towards each bridge. Its a race against time. The game interpretations are exciting and fun if done well.

In my view HoS is potentially the best platform since the original S. Alan Lenton Amiga game to create the definitive Market garden stand alone scenario. The John Tiller version (Panzer Campaigns Market Garden 44) is great but it is super detailed and can be a bit of a pain to micromanage.

I started playing Market Garden in HoS today and have a few thoughts -

... The Paras who land west of Arnhem are destroyed almost immediately. They face heavy tanks at the landing area and are wiped out on the way to Arnhem within a couple of turns. They appear to lack any AT equipment so, Arnhem isn't occupied or held at all (at least in my game), so there isn't any race against time for XXX Core to at least attempt to break through to the ultimate objective Bridge in time right from the start. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong here or whether the Arnhem aspect of the game just needs more work. Further..

All I can think of doing differently is take the airfields at Veenendaal with the initial Paras and then potentially I can plane in AT infantry units. This means I can;t use surprise to head into the Arnhem suburbs and also ...

... Reinforcements in the entire scenario are very limited as Manpower is heavily restricted. I think this is probably correct as this is a stand alone scenario and the OoB was set.

However, whilst I will have to wait and see (unless someone can advise) what happens as the game progresses, I would kind of expect a timed event such that a second and maybe 3rd wave of British Airborne landings take place to the west of Arnhem to reinforce the Paras in the town. This isn't currently critical as the first wave of Paras are gone anyway, so there isn't any need for the reinforcements to try to fight there way into the Arnhem suburbs to reinforce the beleaguered dug in forces defending the bridge. Ideally, the reinforcements create a sort of mini game as they attempt to move East whilst retaining as much strength as possible so they can bolster the dug in Brits and Poles in the town and allow them to hang on a while longer. Is there some sort of trigger event that releases AT units or reinforcements if I take the airfields west of the town?

... And finally for now, there is no upgrade option in the unit purchase tool to add AT to Paras. There are stand alone AT Infantry units but these can't be parachutists, which I believe may be necessary for Arnhem and is a case for a general requirement upgrade for Airborne forces anyway.

p.s Is Grave bridge depicted? I see the otehr minor bridge of Veghul is, maybe its just hidden by the FoW.

[A Corsican Frog]

Good evening Steeve!

I will be looking into that scenario tomorrow and make some needed changes

Thanks a ton for your feedback, I am not super knowledgable about this battle so your input is truly valuable (as would be any other player's)

So, stay tuned for more...

PS: No, there is no way to have AT paras. I mean, not as a separate unit. All AT infantry would be paras. This can all be modded of course, by duplicated the base AT infantry and simply toggling the 'isParatrooper' toggle.

[Steevodeevo]

Thanks a ton Val, pleased you still have the motivation to go back and polish despite your new project. I think it's well worth it personally as Market Garden is an amazing conflict to convert to a video game.

The AT issue can easily be fixed I think as there were significant glider landings of conventional Infantry at the LZs west of Arnhem initially secured by the first Para landings. These Infantry units had light Arty and light 6-pounder AT guns. The Infantry secured and held the LZs and secured further LZs for further glider and Para landings - as well as Supplies- which means the occupied airfields and LZs could offer some limited supply?

There were at least 2 days of landings: day 1 saw Brit Paras and Gliders with Scottish Borderer Infantry and day 2 more Paras, the Polish Paras (who landed at Driel south of the river and had some success crossing in small boats to reinforce the Brits under pressure on the north side in Oosterbeek) and more gliders and limited supplies. Limited as the Germans shot down some supply planes and over ran some LZs designated for supply drops.

Despite losses the Paras did initially secure the north (town) side of the bridge and held out for 4 days but despite several near suicidal assaults across the bridge failed to secure the south side, but it was close. Its quite amazing that the plan only required them to hold Arnhem bridge for 2 days. Monty's eternal optimism planned for XXX Core to then relieve them! Nijmegen put a stop to that timeline.

When it was clear that they could not secure the bridge and the troops in the town were pinned down and surrounded, the Paras and infantry who hadn't made it to the town or were able to withdraw set up a perimeter at Oosterbeek. The idea was if they could hold this area on the north bank of the Rhine then maybe XXX Core could bridge the Rhine here and progress. In the end they could not hold out for XXX Core's arrival here either, despite hanging on for 9 days.

For the US airborne forces I am unclear. I think for some bridges they actually took them by surprise with light losses against poor quality reserves initially and then had to fight like hell to hold them. Others they had to fight to take before they were blown up* and had varied success. One of the delays of XXX Core was that they had to use Engineers to pontoon 'some' of the blown Bridges on the way. Not sure which ones, but I can look it up if it helps, I have more time in my hands than you do. Most of the US target bridges were secured I believe, especially as many had several, (Grave for example had 4 and only 1 or two were blown). Nijmegen was the main delay of course.

Finally ...

I think German heavy armour eventually arrived in Arnhem as reinforcements from the north, but initially they didn't have any to take on the paras, but they did have some armoured vehicles. I think there was the 10th SS Panzer Recon Division west of Arnhem and the 9th Panzer Division mobilised and attacked Arnhem from the north after a day or so. Not sure what kit they had.

Can you check the OoB for XXX Core and air support, it seems a bit weak to me, or it could be I just badly managed it, which is entirely possible as I just rushed through a few turns after I lost Arnhem at the start to see how the game flowed.

P.s..
This info is awesome in regards to the specific fight for Arnhem itself as part of the market garden campaign.. https://www.tracesofwar.com/themes/3644/Battle-of-Arnhem.htm#:~:text=The%20most%20important%20order%20for,Corps%20arrived%20from%20the%20south.&text=On%2017%20September%20the%20first,Zone)%20Z%20and%20LZ%20S.

[Steevodeevo]

Regarding US target bridges.. "By the end of the first day, Guards Armoured Division (XXX Core) had reached Valkenswaard, south of Eindhoven, as planned. Further north, the US 101st Airborne Division had secured most of its objectives, but failed to stop the Germans destroying the crucial bridge over the Wilhelmina Canal at Son.

[A Corsican Frog]

Thanks for all the additional info
I have just pushed an update concerning all Op. Market Garden
The scenario should be greatly overhauled
Let me know how it plays!

[Steevodeevo]

awesome, btw, does it make any difference which of the US or Britain you choose when you play it as a standalone mission? I always select them both as Human controlled in the options anyway

[A Corsican Frog]

Цитата допису Steevodeevo:

awesome, btw, does it make any difference which of the US or Britain you choose when you play it as a standalone mission? I always select them both as Human controlled in the options anyway

No, usually, if the countries are from the same alliance it does not make any difference
There might be balance changes made for one side or the other, though
(Axis vs Allies)
But generally speaking, if both countries are both in the Allies or Axis, scenario should be identical!

[Steevodeevo]

I love how you've handled the 'bridge 1' thing at Oosterbeek. Is it being a bit fussy to ask for the two units that land near Driel to be Polish? I ask as it's then pretty clear that these units are the ones who (if they survive) can cross the Rhine in 'small boats' (bridge 1) to reinforce the Brits at Oosterbeek. .. That's is if I am assuming correctly these represent the Polish Para's.

In this my first play through of the new version I did secure the US target bridges, suitably tough in a couple of cases, except for Son which is exactly what should occur historically. I'm going to replay soon as I want to think out whether I can change history and take Son
:)

Plus also I screwed up big time in Driel and now the Germans are bringing in reinforcements. (Does Driel have supply if taken?)

Also I didn't take Arnhem bridge, but I think I could if I concentrate my forces better, So again I'm going for a retry.

The XXX core advance seems to be proceeding as it should, but I still have a ways to go to reach Nijmegen (turn 5 / 16th September) so that feels cool and Nijmegen feels suitably ominous sitting up there in the FoW..

edit: you even blew up one of the Grave bridges! awesome attention to detail sir!

[CyMonk]

btw. the wikipedia page is quite extensive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden

[A Corsican Frog]

Цитата допису CyMonk:

btw. the wikipedia page is quite extensive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden

It is and I used it extensively this very morning when updating the scenario :)
I gave names to the bridges I could identify

[A Corsican Frog]

Awesome Steeve! Glad it plays better!
As for Polish, well, technically, yes I could
I just personally don’t like to add an entire player to just play 2 units without doing anything else
Those 2 paras are indeed the polish ones, but I did not want to go the extra step of adding a polish player…
What I can do though is rename those units to “Polish paratroopers”

[Steevodeevo]

Цитата допису valentin56610:

Awesome Steeve! Glad it plays better!
As for Polish, well, technically, yes I could
I just personally don’t like to add an entire player to just play 2 units without doing anything else
Those 2 paras are indeed the polish ones, but I did not want to go the extra step of adding a polish player…
What I can do though is rename those units to “Polish paratroopers”

Perfect solution. And yes, i didn't think through adding those 2 as Poles would mean adding a whole other Nation, that would be silly.

[Steevodeevo]

I'm either very bad at this or we need a couple of extra Para units around Arnhem. Though its probably best others play it and see what they think as whilst I love this type of game, I am far from good at them.

edit1-Daimler Armoured Cars can cross major rivers? OK if so, just asking.

edit2- Fascinating thing: if my Paras' in Arnhem could have hung on till around 22nd September, with your slow bleed in of Manpower I could have dropped 2 more Para units into Arnhem shortly after. Interesting...

[A Corsican Frog]

Цитата допису Steevodeevo:

Цитата допису valentin56610:

Awesome Steeve! Glad it plays better!
As for Polish, well, technically, yes I could
I just personally don’t like to add an entire player to just play 2 units without doing anything else
Those 2 paras are indeed the polish ones, but I did not want to go the extra step of adding a polish player…
What I can do though is rename those units to “Polish paratroopers”

Perfect solution. And yes, i didn't think through adding those 2 as Poles would mean adding a whole other Nation, that would be silly.

Alright, using solution #2 then, I’ll properly name the units for “immersion purposes”

[Steevodeevo]

By the way, the scenario plays awesome 👍, quite exciting and nailbighting and I'm only half way to Arnhem. My Arnhem Paras are all gone in play through 2 so I'm not expecting to get across the bridge should XXX Core get through the Nijmegen defences, which are now likely bolstered by units coming down from Arnhem heading south and refitting. We'll see.

I'd pay for a game with just this map and indeed I have before. I guess it can be tweaked for replayability by changing difficulty and beating my own score.

It would be cool if the scenario had a win or loose conclusion somehow, as I'm not sure how it ends if XXX Core simply runs out of steam and the player gives up.

[Steevodeevo]

This article (below) is a very cool (concise & short) piece on the entire battle with some useful detail on the OoB, troop movements and balance of forces.

i found it as I was wondering why XXX Core and the US Airborne en route to Nijmigen was getting tortured by the Luftwaffe, whom in my ignorance I thought was defunct by September 1944, quite the contrary it seems! As the article states:

- the Luftwaffe employed over 300 fighters to defend the breakthrough attempt. On Monday 18th September in Germany and northern Holland, the weather cleared just in time for the Luftwaffe's full effort to begin. Market Garden was the only battle in the campaign for Northwest Europe to be fought with Allied air inferiority, much of it self-inflicted.

- The airborne troops in Holland failed to get any close support, compared to the support given by the Luftwaffe who flew 125 sorties.

- Thursday (21st September) The Poles finally took off from England (bad weather in the UK) but forty-one out of 114 Dakotas had to turn back or land (almost the entire 1st Battalion) due to the weather and over a hundred Luftwaffe fighters were in the air to greet them as they approached the landing zone. A number broke through the fighter screen and claimed several more Dakotas, however Major General S Sosabowski landed with over 750 men, but with no heavy equipment (which had been lost in the gliders two days previous).

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_arnhem.html