HoS Economy?

[James]

I'm starting to understand most of the unit mechanics and how to execute a campaign. From the tactical level to the strategic. Learning from my mistakes and dealing with logistic issues. It is fantastic how well this is all implemented - enjoying every bit of it.

The only thing I do not have a good grasp of is how the economy works.
I can see that every time I capture a village, there is a one-time increase to my wallet/chest of coins (say +5 or +10). As a player, what I really want to do (often) is to increase the "Income per turn". But that does not seem to have anything to do with the tile's production value? Or, am I just capturing less valuable (5 point) tiles for this to show, i.e villages adds nothing, while cities/harbors and factories do?

So without using the editor, just playing a default game:
- How does a player increase the "Income per turn"?
- Is it possible, or is it set in stone for every scenario?
- Does it increase with tiles "owned/occupied/captured"?
- Does it increase when capturing harbors, factories, cities and villages?
- Does it increase if I build harbors or factories on occupied territory?
- Does it increase if I build harbors or factories on homeland (if possible)?
- If possible, how can I customize it? (different difficulties, parameters?)
- What "Policies" can I use to affect the "income per turn value" during a game?

I know it is a balancing thing, so this is not a request to change anything. Just need to know how it works. The manual touches very little on this. Or perhaps I just do not understand. I have also had this question from friends, so I would like to be able to answer them at the same time I tell them HoS is the best wargame out there!

I hope some of you wise chaps can chime in with tips and knowledge!
Cheers all

[CarbonDevice]

I see you've posted on several other threads with these questions, but I'll just put the one-size-fits-all answer here:

The income you see on a tile in the top-right or in the tile editor is the base tile income per turn. When you start a scenario you have your initial set of owned tiles. Each of these generate the base amount of income specified (you can start a small scenario and verify that for yourself). This is the same for the AI players as well.

When you capture a tile (occupy it) you do not get the full tile income, only a small percentage of it (what I'll call the occupied modifier). I think it starts at about 10%, however the value doesn't seem to be in the manual so I'll need Val to confirm that figure. As stated by Val on post #4, the occupied modifier starts at 25%.

If you are playing with policies 'ON', then there are three policies that you can use to increase that occupied modifier which are found in the sixth policy column called 'Occupation'. Each of these policies increases the amount of manpower and income you get from these occupied tiles, whilst also affecting partisan spawn rate in a positive or negative way. The percentages for the income and manpower are also added on to the original (25% + 5% = 30%), not an extra 5% of the 25% of the income.

Bear in mind that if you capture a city (150 income per turn) without any occupation policies you will get 38 (rounded up) income per turn from that occupied city, but the player who lost that city will lose 150 income per turn (not 38, in case anyone expected that). This means that capturing tiles should really be thought of a draining the enemies resources, not increasing your own. This is why capturing villages is generally not profitable (in both a resources and strategic sense), and why cities, factories and refineries are always key targets.

So in a way, yes, your income is largely static throughout small games as you need to occupy a lot of territory to get any significant amount of extra income. With larger maps such as Europe however you will notice a significant increase in income as you capture large amounts of tiles.

To address the other misc. points:

* You can customise your income per turn before starting the game with the sliders on the screen where you select what countries are human or AI controlled. That was added in the last patch.
* I haven't yet built a factory with engineers, but I don't see why it wouldn't increase income as well. Pretty sure you can also build a factory on any tile that is considered yours (so within your borders).
* Everything that I've said above regarding income also applied to manpower, with the one exception being that manpower actually grows by an extra 1%(?) every month(?), in a similar fashion to the Hearts of Iron games.

[James]

Thank you CarbonDevice for a very good explanation!
In particular, the notion of draining the opponents resources. I never thought about it that way since I was probably too fixated by the "income per turn" value. I'll also look into the options provided before I start a game.

[caroraim]

I've played a bit and I have wondered about this too. Thanks to you both for the info, but I would like to know what exactly the factory and refinery give you. Tool tips would be nice! There is a numerical value listed on the hex info panel, with factories being 35 and refineries being 70. I'm guessing that's what they add but cut by 90% if in occupied territory?

[A Corsican Frog]

The exact amount is shown on the tile tooltip! :)
It’s already in the game ;)

After checking the code, you get a 75% penalty from occupying a tile

So, if the tile info shows 35 production value, you get 25% of that

[James]

Thank you Val, for chiming in (hope you have a great vacation!).

I guess you do not actually have to have a unit sitting on the value-tile? Just as long as the tile is within your expanding territory, right?

So as a thought experiment: I would need to set the slider to 400% in order to get what an enemy's tile-value says (with a 75% penalty)? For example: Tile value 15, penalized at 75% gives 3,75. <-- this is the value that gets added to my Income per turn. If I wanted the game to add the full value I need a 400% modifier? 3,75 x 400% = 15.

But that slider also affects my owned tiles(?) at startup so all my valuable tiles also get a 400% boost? Like my own 15 tile-values (unpenalized) would then be 60?

[CarbonDevice]

Originally posted by James:

I guess you do not actually have to have a unit sitting on the value-tile? Just as long as the tile is within your expanding territory, right?

If the tile has your flag over it then it belongs to you, giving you its income and manpower (with the above discussed modifiers of course).

Originally posted by James:

So as a thought experiment: I would need to set the slider to 400% in order to get what an enemy's tile-value says (with a 75% penalty)? For example: Tile value 15, penalized at 75% gives 3,75. <-- this is the value that gets added to my Income per turn. If I wanted the game to add the full value I need a 400% modifier? 3,75 x 400% = 15.

But that slider also affects my owned tiles(?) at startup so all my valuable tiles also get a 400% boost? Like my own 15 tile-values (unpenalized) would then be 60? Is that so?

That is all correct. The slider is just a global percent increase to all income (including your starting resources value).

[A Corsican Frog]

You’re welcome

First day of rest and I had to look at the code already xD
Will take a swim in the pool though to counterbalance work HAHA

No you don’t, just controlling it (having your flag floating on the VP) is enough

The slider has an effect on the total calculated income. It will not show on the tile info. It simply multiplies the final calculated number (which is shown on the top left, where your income is)

Does that answer your question?

[James]

Yes, thank you ladies and gentlemen!
I bet there's been a lot of thought put into this, so it is just good to understand it a little better. Clear as mud now.

Ah, a day by the pool - without modifiers! Enjoy!
I spend my vacation mountainbiking in the hills. Legs, hands, arms and back now pretty modified (or rather demolished) 😂.

[caroraim]

Wait a minute...are you swimming in a pool that is in occupied territory?

Originally posted by valentin56610:

The exact amount is shown on the tile tooltip! :)
It’s already in the game ;)

After checking the code, you get a 75% penalty from occupying a tile

So, if the tile info shows 35 production value, you get 25% of that

Awesome, thanks as always for clarification!

[A Corsican Frog]

Originally posted by James:

Yes, thank you ladies and gentlemen!
I bet there's been a lot of thought put into this, so it is just good to understand it a little better. Clear as mud now.

Ah, a day by the pool - without modifiers! Enjoy!
I spend my vacation mountainbiking in the hills. Legs, hands, arms and back now pretty modified (or rather demolished) 😂.

Clear as mud? Do you still need some explanations then? Hahaha

Thanks!
I do love mountains as well! Went a lot with my parents when I was younger
Did you fall a lot ? XD

[A Corsican Frog]

Originally posted by caroraim:

Wait a minute...are you swimming in a pool that is in occupied territory?

Originally posted by valentin56610:

The exact amount is shown on the tile tooltip! :)
It’s already in the game ;)

After checking the code, you get a 75% penalty from occupying a tile

So, if the tile info shows 35 production value, you get 25% of that

Awesome, thanks as always for clarification!

Hahaha
In 1940, it technically was occupied territory xD

You’re welcome!

[nealCaffrey1941]

I'm really confused - I'm playing a "random" scenario against Finland. Initially they had 175 income, which made sense from the one city (150) and 5 villages (25) adding up to 175. After several turns, they have not captured any cities or villages but their income up to 1,055 per turn! What is going on?? I'm getting crushed because they can build a million tanks per turn while I struggle to generate a light infantry squad every third turn. What am I missing here??

[A Corsican Frog]

Originally posted by nealCaffrey1941:

I'm really confused - I'm playing a "random" scenario against Finland. Initially they had 175 income, which made sense from the one city (150) and 5 villages (25) adding up to 175. After several turns, they have not captured any cities or villages but their income up to 1,055 per turn! What is going on?? I'm getting crushed because they can build a million tanks per turn while I struggle to generate a light infantry squad every third turn. What am I missing here??

I would like to get my hands on a save file if you have one?
Can you please send it to me at [e-mail]
There must be a logical explanation to this as income cannot magically appear out of thin air given the code there is in the game

Probably only logical explanation is a bug with policies

Edit: what do you mean exactly by “their income” please? Do you mean the top left UI element indicating how much a player earns every turn, or do you mean the value taken from the previous turn summary? As these are absolutely not the same, and previous turn summary could show pretty much any value there as it only keep tracks of income changes during the turn. You could get it up to 1 million earned by: purchasing units, selling them, purchasing, selling, etc etc etc until you reach 1 million

[nealCaffrey1941]

Originally posted by A Corsican Frog:

Originally posted by nealCaffrey1941:

I'm really confused - I'm playing a "random" scenario against Finland. Initially they had 175 income, which made sense from the one city (150) and 5 villages (25) adding up to 175. After several turns, they have not captured any cities or villages but their income up to 1,055 per turn! What is going on?? I'm getting crushed because they can build a million tanks per turn while I struggle to generate a light infantry squad every third turn. What am I missing here??

I would like to get my hands on a save file if you have one?
Can you please send it to me at [e-mail]
There must be a logical explanation to this as income cannot magically appear out of thin air given the code there is in the game

Probably only logical explanation is a bug with policies

Edit: what do you mean exactly by “their income” please? Do you mean the top left UI element indicating how much a player earns every turn, or do you mean the value taken from the previous turn summary? As these are absolutely not the same, and previous turn summary could show pretty much any value there as it only keep tracks of income changes during the turn. You could get it up to 1 million earned by: purchasing units, selling them, purchasing, selling, etc etc etc until you reach 1 million

Thank you so much for replying so quickly to this. Yes, the "income" I'm seeing at 1,000+ is the previous turn summary. So it sounds like this does not reflect actual *net* income as you explained it being a sum of, among other things, purchases and sales. (it seems the AI is conducting many buys + sells). The in-turn income shows ??? for the AI player. Thank you again - merci beaucoup!

[A Corsican Frog]

Originally posted by nealCaffrey1941:

Thank you so much for replying so quickly to this. Yes, the "income" I'm seeing at 1,000+ is the previous turn summary. So it sounds like this does not reflect actual *net* income as you explained it being a sum of, among other things, purchases and sales. (it seems the AI is conducting many buys + sells). The in-turn income shows ??? for the AI player. Thank you again - merci beaucoup!

You're welcome!

Ok then it does not scare me :)
AI could have made a wrong decision and purchased the wrong unit (that it ended up not using or could not deploy it) and decided to sell it afterward
Or it could come from the capture of an enemy unit that was same as above, no use, and sold for scraps

I am pretty sure (99%) that the income per turn IS displayed on the UI in the top left
The money in the bank is not, that is the ??? you see
But the income is shown next to that (to the right?)