The problem with Infinite's campaign story (open letter to 343i -- I'm nice, I promise!)

[Ninian]

I feel like the problem of Halo Infinite's campaign story is that it's a really good science fiction story. No, seriously. It's a good sci-fi romp. It's fun. It's engaging. You know what? I like it a lot, even. The Banished are cool, the writing is solid especially with Chief and Echo's dynamics. I like it. I really do like the game for what it is in a vacuum.

*BUT THAT ISNT WHAT HALO IS OR WAS*


Halo 1-3 + Reach + ODST was an EPIC. A story of layers and scope and breadth. Of being overwhelmed by something much bigger than you, from the depth of the Forerunners and what they left behind and each lost soldier's stories. It wasn't just a "cool sci-fi story". Those games a deeply immersive vertical slice into a galactic conflict, where you feel perpetually underwater -- ESPECIALLY in ODST and Reach. Master Chief and his heroism feel meaningful as the audience's swimming up for air, especially if you go from Reach to replaying the original trilogy.

I don't envy you folks at 343i -- that kind of story really was self-contained lightning in a bottle with a beginning, middle and end that doesn't really call for or need continuation. Microsoft obviously wasn't going to let a profitable IP rest on its laurels. I get it. If I was in charge I'd probably have fumbled Halo 4 and Halo 5 even worse because how the heck do you follow up that act? Especially under corporate pressure.


But I implore, if you're going to do a Halo 7? Learn from the sheer gravity of the original five bungie games. Echo was an *AMAZING* showing as a character in that vein. You guys can absolutely do it when you put your mind to it if his arc and the psychology behind him is any indication. I like him just as much as any of the original trilogy's best characters. But he belongs to a story where the equivalent of the Covenant (the Banished) exist as a threat because the story say they should exist as a threat and not from anything earned or organic. If his story existed in a setting with the sheer intense gravity and awe that the original Bungie games had (as opposed to being threatened by what is basically comic book villains like the Banished) there'd be hundreds of youtube videos talking about him and his PTSD.

Nonetheless, Infinite is a massive leap in writing quality over Halo 5. Don't lose your nerve now. That leap left me awestruck and I believe you can do it again, if you can internalize what the Halo *experience* was about. (for example: there is a reason the original games didn't have sprinting or any kind of fast movement, that was a design choice from the outset in part of building the grand scope. It'd behoove 343i to interrogate why that design choice was made especially as it intersects with the story build-up and setting, it might be revelatory)

-- Best of wishes and good luck from a very longtime fan.


P.S. I'll nail a live grunt to your front door of your houses if you ever delist the MCC from sale in the wake of a remake of any sort. Please think of the grunts.

[Ninian]

P.P.S. "The Endless" ? Amplitude Studios called. They want their precursor villains back.

[Fax_the_Sender]

they aren't going to read this.

[Ninian]

Publicado originalmente por Fax_the_Sender:

they aren't going to read this.

Absolutely not. But it felt good to say it.

[KairanShadow]

Truly big of you to hop onto an alt account private profile and describe literally nothing but non descript vibes about just how grand the original games were

surely that lack of any understanding never help anyone improve but you got internet points so I guess that's supposed to mean something

[Ninian]

Vibes are important. And the fact that it's difficult to describe them is all the more reason for 343i to immerse in them. The original trilogy has those vibes of attending a grand opera or seeing the pink colors of a dawn.

Infinite doesn't give me any of that -- even though, I should emphasize again. I LOVE this game. Infinite is a hell of a lot of fun and it's written extremely well. I genuinely really really like Infinite. But it's vibes are "this is a really cool video game with a science fiction story". That's not what the original games were, though. They were more than that.
If that's all you think Bungie made back in the day... ah. Well, what I can tell you? I got nutrition from the original games that you didn't. As someone who's neurodivergent and doesn't always "get" things other people do like from popular music and stuff I actually understand. I can only apologize for frustrating you as normies had sometimes frustrated me in the past.

[KairanShadow]

Publicado originalmente por Ninian:

Vibes are important. And the fact that it's difficult to describe them is all the more reason for 343i to immerse in them.

Do you actually bother to read what you type? it doesn't matter what they do, the vibes will always be wrong, they could copy paste it perfectly and the vibes will still be wrong because as you said, you don't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ know how to describe it meaning you will change it's definition every single time

[Ninian]

I apologize but I have no idea what you're getting at.

EDIT: I guess you're not understanding my point that the Bungie trilogy had a grand immersion due to the whole thing having a strong sense of cause and effect due to forces well beyond the player's role in the story. You're just one small piece of that grand narrative, even if the Master Chief himself is the Queen on that chessboard. And yes, that's a vibe that's hard to put to words. It is indeed my failing to fully communicate that energy due to that vibe being hard to put to words. But we sure knew how we felt when we lost it, as a community, considering Halo 4 and 5's reception.

[KairanShadow]

Publicado originalmente por Ninian:

I apologize but I have no idea what you're getting at.

EDIT: I guess you're not understanding my point that the Bungie trilogy had a grand immersion due to the whole thing having a strong sense of cause and effect due to forces well beyond the player's role in the story. You're just one small piece of that grand narrative, even if the Master Chief himself is the Queen on that chessboard. And yes, that's a vibe that's hard to put to words. It is indeed my failing to fully communicate that energy due to that vibe being hard to put to words. But we sure knew how we felt when we lost it, as a community, considering Halo 4 and 5's reception.

4 and 5 had 2 different receptions
the actual reception and the flood forums reception

mind you the flood forums was made to make fun of constant whiners bungie was 100% aware of how toxic it's own community can be at times and microsoft wasn't the key difference is Bungie made fun of you and 343 catered and now that they're also poking fun, the people that constantly made nonsensical complaints are getting upset their wittle feefees are hurt

the actual reception generally has these games at 85+/100 anyone that calls that bad is disingenuous as well as ignoring any outside impact like say, another game reaching and taking the same popularity before 2010

and that grand immersion never made sense "oh master chief is the queen on a chess board" pretty sure the queen can't steam roll every single piece without them taking a turn you literally spend 3 games soloing the covenant within the games and outside of contact harvest bungie never took the books into consideration, period.

[Ghoti]

Disagreed.

[Ninian]

Publicado originalmente por KairanShadow:

and that grand immersion never made sense "oh master chief is the queen on a chess board" pretty sure the queen can't steam roll every single piece without them taking a turn you literally spend 3 games soloing the covenant within the games and outside of contact harvest bungie never took the books into consideration, period.

Only responding to this bit because I more or less see where you're coming from with the rest. (don't necessarily agree 100%, but I respect your POV as tempering my own outlook -- like you're right, what I said wrt 4 and 5 was kind of out of line and I erased a lot of nuance with such a broad brush)

Just the two things I wanted to say though:

1. High level chess play can absolutely make the queen the nuke that changes the entire board. Going against a master, chiefly, can have your entire line of pawns wiped out in a hurry. Though yes, the queen doesn't do it alone. I'd argue MC didn't either. Heck it's one of the points I really like about Halo Infinite's story is the Banished more or less having done MC's job for him. (and Atriox nearly killing him is an unforgettable intro)

2. I am personally *relieved* Bungie mostly ignored the EU. The EU in the books makes a complete dog's breakfast of the setting by answering mysteries that served the story better *as* mysteries, such as the true origin of the Flood. Relates to what I said from the outset about how the setting is at its best when it feels like a grand narrative that makes you feel small as a participant in it. (hence ODST and Reach)

(btw on that note not gonna lie, I kind of miss the Flood. But I recognize gameplay against them is pretty one-note and once you get past the viscerally spooky horror feels it can be a bit like eating a bowl of paste if they outstay their welcome. I definitely don't blame 343i for mostly shelving them for now.)


As an aside I'm enjoying the discussion ^_^ And I do think I'll give 4 and eventually 5 a fairer shot if the latter shows up on Steam.

[KairanShadow]

Publicado originalmente por Ninian:

Publicado originalmente por KairanShadow:

and that grand immersion never made sense "oh master chief is the queen on a chess board" pretty sure the queen can't steam roll every single piece without them taking a turn you literally spend 3 games soloing the covenant within the games and outside of contact harvest bungie never took the books into consideration, period.

Only responding to this bit because I more or less see where you're coming from with the rest. (don't necessarily agree 100%, but I respect your POV as tempering my own outlook -- like you're right, what I said wrt 4 and 5 was kind of out of line and I erased a lot of nuance with such a broad brush)

Just the two things I wanted to say though:

1. High level chess play can absolutely make the queen the nuke that changes the entire board. Going against a master, chiefly, can have your entire line of pawns wiped out in a hurry. Though yes, the queen doesn't do it alone. I'd argue MC didn't either. Heck it's one of the points I really like about Halo Infinite's story is the Banished more or less having done MC's job for him. (and Atriox nearly killing him is an unforgettable intro)

2. I am personally *relieved* Bungie mostly ignored the EU. The EU in the books makes a complete dog's breakfast of the setting by answering mysteries that served the story better *as* mysteries, such as the true origin of the Flood. Relates to what I said from the outset about how the setting is at its best when it feels like a grand narrative that makes you feel small as a participant in it. (hence ODST and Reach)

(btw on that note not gonna lie, I kind of miss the Flood. But I recognize gameplay against them is pretty one-note and once you get past the viscerally spooky horror feels it can be a bit like eating a bowl of paste if they outstay their welcome. I definitely don't blame 343i for mostly shelving them for now.)


As an aside I'm enjoying the discussion ^_^ And I do think I'll give 4 and eventually 5 a fairer shot if the latter shows up on Steam.

1. I know that is the case but it's something thats just never seen done by the underdog, people talk about the bungie games being this humanity's last stand thing but that really only applies to the EU book (i'll get on that in 2.) and Reach, The humans basically steam roll the covenant and the only time they're backs were to the wall was solely from the flood until Reach

2.This we are in 100% agreement with I really wish 343 would disconnect the books from the games because getting like 6 different authors of comics, books, and games to make a cohesive story that doesn't undercut, ignore, or copy paste without realizing is basically impossible not even comics do a good enough job with that across different character titles and that's literally their bread and butter with several of these authors being in the same building

the best way to respect the books would be to take their core plot points and make a game to put it into the games canon and just have the books lore and games lore run parallel

kudos for putting up with my BS I just get generally agitated when people talk about vibes because even when they have done that, tthe goal post is usually pushed further because a lot of people don't want 343 to make a successful halo, they want them gone

[Ninian]

Publicado originalmente por KairanShadow:

kudos for putting up with my BS I just get generally agitated when people talk about vibes because even when they have done that, tthe goal post is usually pushed further because a lot of people don't want 343 to make a successful halo, they want them gone

No, I totally get it. When people can't describe what they're missing and just gesticulate wildly because they're blinding by nostalgia that's *incredibly* frustrating. And honestly, anyone who hates on Halo Infinite I think is just totally blinkered. The writing in this game is amazing and I honestly think it's the best in the series. I stand by my criticisms of the vibes and the "it happens because it's narratively interesting" lore writing, but I wouldn't argue for a nanosecond that Infinite's writing isn't the best of the series in a vacuum. The scene with Chief and Echo towards the end where the latter is breaking down? The best scene in the entire franchise. The Weapon is also possibly my favorite character in all of Halo aside from the Gravemind and Chief himself. Sorry Cortana.

It's similar to the Pokemon community, honestly. Gen 1 peeps like myself sometimes make really stupid arguments about why Pokemon was better back in the gameboy days but they never elaborate on *why*. And the "why" is because we had a more intimate relationship with a smaller cast of monsters and the pop culture presence Pokemon had in the late 90's. The latter isn't ever going to happen again, but the former could still be cultivated if GameFreak's current devs got their head back in the game. (which is why I'm not as bothered by Dexit now as I was at first)

... sorry I know that's a non-sequitur.

Anyways, seriously, thank you for pushing back on me with 4 and 5. And I agree, anyone just *hating* on 343i is just... no. Get the hell out of here. They're intense fans like the rest of us. And I said it before but in their place I'd have done the franchise a lot worse, given that responsibility. But I still think they've not totally internalized the vibes of the original trilogy + side games and the importance of that grand energy of what Halo *is* at its core identity.