Why does it seem that the 'best' pistol stats wise is unlocked at the start?

[Shurenai]

This seems odd to me from a game balance perspective.. The M9 pistol you begin with has the best aim speed, the best accuracy and the third best crit chance- Though it's a close contender for second place. The only pistol with what looks like a meaningfully higher crit chance is the 1911 pistol which trades aim speed and long range accuracy pretty heavily in return for an admittedly sizable crit chance boost (almost double the M9).

It only has 2 less bullets in the magazine compared to the 17 of some of the others, and is the same

The M9 also seems to be the only one that can equip a suppressor?

All pistols share the same maneuverability and reload speed as well.


It just seems odd to me.... Aim speed and accuracy, especially up close, are invaluable in a side arm, And trading that for a 'chance' at a crit sounds like a fools move. Most of them are the same caliber too. Are there hidden stats? Or is it just a case of it not being especially important to balance out since side arms are of relatively little use in the long term? Is crit maybe much more useful than it seems?

TL;DR: Why would I choose to spend my few stars on unlocking other side arms when they all seem, at face value, to be objectively worse in many ways than the one I started with?


As a related side question, Why the heck does the M4 URG-I Carbine cost 20 stars to unlock despite having worse accuracy and worse crit chance, and all the other guns in the assault's primary category costing 4-6 or 8 for the singular shotgun? It's not even a higher caliber that would at face value do more damage, So it just seems....very odd.

Still, Enjoying the game despite some of the oddities.

[axios2006]

Hi,
you have not considered the caliber. .45 has more stopping power then a 9mm.

Especially in tight spaces, crit chance is better than range and accuracy.

"Few stars"... the game has infinite stars, thanks to random generated maps.

Also, nothing in the game says that better weapons are to be unlocked. Weapons are "better" or "worse" according to playstyles or personal preferences.

In assault rifles, fir example, barrel length is a factor to consider depending the map size and type.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by axios2006:

Hi,
you have not considered the caliber. .45 has more stopping power then a 9mm.

Especially in tight spaces, crit chance is better than range and accuracy.

"Few stars"... the game has infinite stars, thanks to random generated maps.

Also, nothing in the game says that better weapons are to be unlocked. Weapons are "better" or "worse" according to playstyles or personal preferences.

In assault rifles, fir example, barrel length is a factor to consider depending the map size and type.

I considered the caliber actually.. all of the pistols are 9mm except the .40 and the .45, both of which are the guns with higher crit chance than the M9 that I particularly called out as trading that aim speed and accuracy for crit chance.

The M17, M18 and G19X all have lower aim speed/accuracy/crit chance across the board (G19x has a very minor aim speed advantage in the 6-10m range specifically, but lower from there on), all the same 9x19 caliber. The only benefit they have is that they have 2 extra bullets in the magazine- But with lower accuracy and crit chance, You're spending those extra bullets to make up that difference, and that is very bad in the time to kill category- Because that means you are subjecting yourself to additional fire.

I would class the .40 and the .45 as situationally useful if crit really is more valuable than accuracy, though aim speed is also incredibly important in such tight spaces, and both the .40 and .45 trade that for crit when compared to the M9.

But the M17/M18/G19X? They're pretty much just worse with no apparent benefit or tradeoff... just worse. They don't get any maneuverability or reload speed bonus, they don't have better caliber, there's no measure of refire rate either so at face value I assume they all fire at the same rate once the target is acquired... So what value are they to the player?

The M9 vs the .40/.45 is a playstyle choice, You're trading aim speed and accuracy for crit chance, That may be meaningful in different playstyles or based on player preferences. The M17/M18/G19X on the other hand appear to be...at best, an optional handicap, Not a playstyle choice or preference.


And yeah, Few stars. Hypothetically infinite- Practically, I get 1-3 at a time per map cleared depending on my performance... So I am perpetually, working with just a few stars at a time and saving up to buy things until everything is unlocked, at which point the remainder of the hypothetically infinite stars are moot anyway.

With my few stars, I'm not going to pick something that at face value appears objectively worse than what I have- I'm going to apply those few stars to obvious upgrades that increase the effect of my forces, and only after unlocking everything else would I come back and unlock the side arms because I have nothing else to spend my stars on.


And sure- Nothing in pretty much ANY game expressly says "Yeah the things you unlock are going to be better"; It remains that you can pretty safely expect that in 99.9% of games with such unlocks that the things you unlock are in some way better than what you have....Otherwise, why unlock them?


Let me try putting it another way...

The thing is, Yes, When weapons have a Meaningful trade off, it's not about them being 'Better' to be unlocked- They become tactical choices that you tailor to the map layout, the expected enemy, etc.

The assault's primary alternatives all, generally, are either an upgrade or a change in playstyle/preference, Picking the shotgun is an obvious playstyle/preference change. Picking the SMG is the same. Picking most of the carbines is a tradeoff for maneuverability and up close crit chance, picking the MK 17s is an increase in caliber in addition to the benefits of the carbines in return for bigger maluses on aim speed/accuracy.
And of course, as you say, the barrel length of these is also a factor to consider.

The Support's primary is the same- The shotgun is a straight playstyle/preference change. The M240L trades off up closeaim speed, maneuverability, reload speed, and magazine size and the ability to have a suppressor for a caliber upgrade, extra accuracy and crit chance.
The Mk48 trades a bit of maneuverability, magazine size and crit chance for a higher caliber and a general increase in aim speed and accuracy.
The XM338 trades maneuverability, aim speed, and a huge amount of the magazine size for an even bigger caliber jump, a marked accuracy increase, a reload speed increase, and an increase at crit chance from 8~m onwards.

These are meaningful choices- these have playstyle impacts, preference impacts... They all have trade offs that have a meaningful weight on your tactical decisions and how the game will play out.

These primary choices are not objectively better than the one you start with- They are different and incite playstyle changes or are easily subjectively preferred because a player might like higher accuracy over aim speed since they like to set up and lure enemies to them instead of dynamically breaching room by room, as an example.


But, For 3 of the 5 unlockable pistols, there is nothing like that.. There is no interesting tradeoff among them that might incentivize a player to use it in some specific situation.... They're just objectively worse than what you start with.

And the remaining 2 of 5 are, if crit is as good as you say, a very similar switch of playstyle compared to the M9 such that you really only need to pick one of the two, whichever is your favorite.. Either higher crit and less magazine, or more magazine and less crit.

So 4 of the 5 of the unlockable pistols are "grab it at the very end of your playthrough when you have nothing else to spend points on because they are flat out worse than your starter weapon", And that feels very out of keeping with the interesting tradeoffs presented in the primary gear for each class.


Sorry for rambling on a bit- 7am atm and about to head to bed. Hopefully what I said makes sense.

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

Personally I prefer .45acp pistols, because of high crit chance.
They rarely needs "second" double tap.

Unlockable guns are not always better, e.g. "I don't understand raison d'être at all",
or too good to be true, e.g. "why dev made the most bestest ever gun? things".

Anyway choice of guns are only one of the aspect of the game and obviously not the most important one,
e.g. not which but where is far more important,
so don't be too serious about them and enjoy to try other guns, learn tactics.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Particularly since the m9 sucks...

[N0wh3re]

your opinion is make sense and reasonable. I actually don't agree to some part of your post, but it doesn't mean I don't understand your think. It's difference of thinks from each.

And this is an out of the point question tho, I never thought that M9 is 'best' or 'better' 9mm pistol ever during my 600 hours played, Is this only me got surprise M9 is best in 9mm category?
Should I throw away my glock and take m9 back?

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

You are a veteran player so no one would blame you to snoop dev's debugging tool (Alt + R-drag) or local file, instead of testing or worrying about.

[Betty's Honor guard]

It would actually add a whole new layer to balance and strategical gameplay if career mode will require funding for acquiring materiel as well as for maintaining it. With a lower maintenance budget spent giving a higher chance for actual malfunctions in the field. This would also make cheaper ammo more interesting. Then if you would get discounts for buying in bulk, it would, in certain situations, be worth it to not diversify too much regarding calibers used. Make the whole logistics and acquisition side just a little more realistic and interesting, other than just spend stars to unlock.

[SlayerFox]

There are hidden stats.

Take, for example, the M4/MK18; you might ask yourself "why the heck would I want to use SOST rounds? they just have worse crit chance!" and the answer is fire rate. SOST has a higher fire rate than either Green Tip or EPR. IIRC, the EPR round has the highest crit damage of the three.

This holds true for guns as well. The "aim speed" "accuracy" and "crit chance" are not the whole story, and what you do see isn't the best indicator of the actual stats anyways. Things like fire rate, damage, crit damage, crit damage fall-off, armor pen, armor pen fall-off, etc; There's lots of stats the game doesn't outright tell you, but if you read the weapon descriptions they (usually) tell you why you might want a specific gun.

I cannot remember all the stats, and I no longer have my trusty-spreadsheet, but I do remember that you are actually wrong about the best overall pistol.. It's the G22 (.40 S&W). IIRC, it's because of it's damage, crit chance, fire rate, and damage/crit fall-offs. It's got the best of the .45 and 9mm in terms of stats.

Of course there are other considerations when picking guns; it's not just about the hard-stats. For example, I run the MK18 (most) of the time, as a personal preference and it's viability in most situations. However, if I need to shoot a longer ranges, I will take the M4 or M16 rifles depending on what I need it for. If it's a really short-range CQB map with enemies that have actual armor, I take the mk17 CQB for it's crit and damage... that gun will 1-2 shot almost anyone. If I need to clear a map fast and stealthily, I take MP7's due to the fire rate, sound travel range, and fast target acquisition.

The game gives you different guns, not to pick the one "best" option and never touch the loadout again, but to give you a multitude of different tools for different jobs.

And as for why the M4 URG-I costs so much? weight, recoil control, and maneuverability I suppose.. That's what the description leads me to believe anyways. I haven't tried running the gun yet, so I'm not sure. The devs deemed it to be good enough to warrant that price, so there is probably some reason for it. Or maybe it's just cuz it's a new gun and it'll drop in price next update.

[76561199083063683]

i was curious about that too. how come the M17 have worse stats than the M9

[NeverADullDoor]

For the most part, pistol choice is an afterthought anyway; in 200 hours of playtime, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen an operator have to switch to a secondary and continue to engage hostiles. Good tactics and the skill level of the operator matter more than actual weapon stats - even for a lot of the primary options, but doubly so for if/when sidearms get into play.

Honestly, cost and stats are such a non issue that it's all more of a head canon/cosmetic choice for me when I pick sidearms (aside from CIA, which varies based on mission, and SWAT w/ shields - HS-45 all day, everyday). That's why my Rangers are mostly armed with M18s, even though, stat panel wise, it's the worst option; it's got like 90-95% parts compatibility with the Big Army issued M17, but the shorter barrel means its lighter and faster to clear a holster - perfect for a gun that's almost never going to be employed except in emergencies. The only exception is my Marksmen, who carry Glocks in .40 S&W (IDK why only Militia get modern double stack .45s, but that's another thread) because, even though I'd never do it in game, they might be forced to clear a building, and doing CQB with 1 meter long, 15-20 lbs rifles isn't fun, so they get big boy pistols instead.

[alex]

URGI doesn't exactly have worse accuracy/crit than M4
but it can look like it bc of how the graphs can be vague at first glance
it's kinda the same with why Mk318 seems like it's worse than A1, but it's actually the meta 5.56 ammo in vanilla bc of the guaranteed 3-tap kills at close range

URGI's full auto range is 5.5/6m and M4 is 4/5.5m
and full auto has less accuracy + crit than rapid fire
so the graph naturally will show accuracy + crit as increasing later , bc of that extra 1m for the full auto attacktype

URGI's semi auto atktype also has a slightly higher fire rate than the other M4s
RapidFireMed (crit + accuracy increases here) > 6.5 vs 6 rps
CarbineAimedFire > 2.3 vs 3 rps

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

That is why I have suggested dev to show RPS.
RPS vs distance is the most important attribute so all modders and many veterans investigate them.
Of course, they are written in my gun guide to tell newcomers.

Full-auto, quick semi-auto with medium crit chance, or slow firing with guaranteed crit is what we need.
IMO M4 with SOST ammo and Holo-sight was the best gun.
The one with the suppressor was the bestest gun.
URGI is now the most bestest ever gun...
On the other hand, M4/M203 of SWAT Leader is very weak, despite it costs 20 stars.

Anyway, this game is not ultra difficult so we don't need to stick to the best gun.
IIRC dev will introduce a new mode, in which all equipment is unlocked.
Many players also try to improve the game, with suggestions, guides, mods,
so the game will get better.