Silencers and the new update tidbit

[4RecceOperator]

I was fiddling around with the silencers on a Mk 18 and i was comparing it to a Mk 18 without a silencer( both rifles had the same ammo and sights) and the Mk18 with the silencer appears to have better stats then the one without( better accuracy )

Now i don't know to much about how a silencer would affect ballistics and such in the real world but i found it really cool that this happened in the game.

And I don't know how much this translates to increased performance in the game but i find it pretty cool none the less. I suppose the downside being is that you have a longer rifle in the game if you put a can on.I'm not complaining or anything about it I just found it pretty interesting and felt like posting it.

Just one request is that perhaps the glocks be allowed to accept suppressors. I mean they already have subsonic 9mm ammo and i feel like it could be useful for the rangers who don't have access to that Mk23 that the CIA have.

Really been enjoying the game and I cant wait to see what else is in store.

[Waiting to Visit Japan (^.-)]

Originally posted by cameronayrtonc:

Now i don't know to much about how a silencer would affect ballistics and such in the real world

This question is debated often... at my sports club... with my LEO friends... firearms websites... and so on. Some insist suppressors affect accuracy. Some insist no.

My suppressors work just fine. I'll leave it at that. (^,^)

Thanks, again, to the Devs for this welcome addition (and their patience with users about it).

[Vulpe Nebuna]

The suppressors (in our game) don't directly affect accuracy through I think we could work with that, provided we have sources to back up the data. What they currently do is work with recoil control, they increase the range at which you are able to use some of the close range Attack Methods (increased weight at the end of the barrel helps with recoil). The game doesn't care, just takes everything into account and shows you the practical accuracy resulting, and that is increased :)

In game terms - accuracy is the chance to score a hit on each shot.

[maru]

It probably also depends a lot on the type of suppressor used. The solid discs of rubber used in the welrod likely have a much greater effect than the modern wipes with pre-made holes in them most suppressors. Also the current state of the device, how much carbon is in it and how worn out are your wipes? etc.

I imagine that the intent with a game like this would be that our operators are consummate professionals who always clean and maintain their equipment as recommended by the manufacturer.

[czech]

So in terms of the game is there any reason not to use silencers?

[Vulpe Nebuna]

They decrease "maneuverability" (slow down operation, getting up on the target) to some extent and increase weapon length which can be a problem in close spaces.

[Timerlane]

There's an increase in weapon length(a suppressed Mk18 is 'longer' than an unsuppressed M4), and a mild increase in general 'handling' times(e.g. reloading, weapon switching, ready time(the time it takes to raise the weapon again after, say, kicking a door, or getting too close to a wall or object)).

For CIA, it also affects concealment. The suppressed Mk24 or MP5K alone are all you can carry if you want to stay covert on the Undercover class. The suppressed MP7 alone is all you can carry covertly under the Black Ops' Poncho.

Oh, and the M9 does suffer a loss of accuracy, but I believe that was a specific implementation, as the M9 was never really 'designed' to be used as a suppressed weapon(low sights, etc).

[czech]

Originally posted by Vulpe Nebuna:

They decrease "maneuverability" (slow down operation, getting up on the target) to some extent and increase weapon length which can be a problem in close spaces.

ah ok makes sense

[shirgall]

Suppressors do increase the velocity of fired rounds and sometimes affect point of impact.

[Peregrine]

In some cases, the suppressor actually IMPROVES accuracy, IRL.

[maru]

Kinda sucks that the grenadiers can't mount silencers too...

[Timerlane]

Grenadiers also aren't allowed LPVOs, so I suspect it might be a case of them not wanting Grenadiers to be too versatile.

[Sandman]

I am a retired 18Z W3. I have also enjoyed gaming ever since computer chess, "Red Baron" and the original "Rainbow Six" (I also know who the guy in the mask is on the cover of the box. He's a friend of mine since 1992). On one deployment to Ghazni back in 2006, one of the weapons I took with me (and there were several) was a Mk 12 SPR. During pre-deployment workups and equipment shake down, I was working up range dope for the Mk 12, firing BH 77gr. Mk 262, both with and without the suppressor. I noticed that with the suppressor attached, it was gaining an average of about 50 fps in MV over firing the same ammo unsuppressed. Group size was also cut in half, from about 1 MOA to about 0.5 MOA on average. All of which caused me to make inquiries with the manufacturer. Given the format, I'll try to shorten a rather complex phenomena and keep it understandable. It has to to with what is called "dirty air" which forms in front of the muzzle when the weapon is fired. The air that is already in the bore, in front of the chambered round, is compressed in front of the bullet when it is fired. As this highly compressed column of air exits the muzzle, it hits the ambient atmosphere already there and immediately decelerates, forming a vortex in front of the muzzle, just before the bullet exits. This is called "dirty air". The effect on the bullet as it passes through this vortex as it exits, is like passing through a soft wall in the air. It loses some velocity, and therefore, some energy, and it can induce vortex related yaw, which affects accuracy. The suppressor is designed to deal with the energy of high pressure gases. It doesn't matter if those gases are in front of the bullet or behind it, they all get treated the same. The suppressor has the effect of stripping that "dirty air" from out of the bullet's path and getting it out of the way. No "dirty air", no muzzle vortex to get in the way. The bullet exits the suppressor into "clean air" and remains unaffected. So, higher retained MV, higher energy, less yaw, more accuracy. Get it?

[Vulpe Nebuna]

Originally posted by Sandman:

I am a retired 18Z W3. I have also enjoyed gaming ever since computer chess, "Red Baron" and the original "Rainbow Six" (I also know who the guy in the mask is on the cover of the box. He's a friend of mine since 1992). On one deployment to Ghazni back in 2006, one of the weapons I took with me (and there were several) was a Mk 12 SPR. During pre-deployment workups and equipment shake down, I was working up range dope for the Mk 12, firing BH 77gr. Mk 262, both with and without the suppressor. I noticed that with the suppressor attached, it was gaining an average of about 50 fps in MV over firing the same ammo unsuppressed. Group size was also cut in half, from about 1 MOA to about 0.5 MOA on average. All of which caused me to make inquiries with the manufacturer. Given the format, I'll try to shorten a rather complex phenomena and keep it understandable. It has to to with what is called "dirty air" which forms in front of the muzzle when the weapon is fired. The air that is already in the bore, in front of the chambered round, is compressed in front of the bullet when it is fired. As this highly compressed column of air exits the muzzle, it hits the ambient atmosphere already there and immediately decelerates, forming a vortex in front of the muzzle, just before the bullet exits. This is called "dirty air". The effect on the bullet as it passes through this vortex as it exits, is like passing through a soft wall in the air. It loses some velocity, and therefore, some energy, and it can induce vortex related yaw, which affects accuracy. The suppressor is designed to deal with the energy of high pressure gases. It doesn't matter if those gases are in front of the bullet or behind it, they all get treated the same. The suppressor has the effect of stripping that "dirty air" from out of the bullet's path and getting it out of the way. No "dirty air", no muzzle vortex to get in the way. The bullet exits the suppressor into "clean air" and remains unaffected. So, higher retained MV, higher energy, less yaw, more accuracy. Get it?

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Would you say the dirty air thing would depend on the muzzle attachment (say muzzle brake, flash hider, simple crowned barrel) ?

[Sandman]

Please understand that my comment was about a very specific bit of testing that I did personally on a specific weapon, suppressor and load. The term "dirty air" is just a short-hand term used by shooters to describe the vortex formed by the piston of air and/or powder gases from the bore exiting the muzzle. A simple crowned barrel represents your base-line. It has no affect on "dirty air". In fact, a well crowned muzzle ensures accuracy by ensuring that the bullet exits the muzzle with as little disruption as possible to minimize yaw, and as little disruption of the vortex as possible to minimize vortex induced yaw.
The different muzzle attachments that you mentioned all differ in what they are designed to do. A muzzle brake diverts a portion of those gases through ports in the top and/or sides in order to try to mediate recoil and/or muzzle rise to varying degrees. I personally have never tested this in terms of MV or accuracy, but I would hazard a guess that it might help, to a certain degree due to the diversion of some of the gases. But some of those gases are still going to exit straight out the front and form "dirty air". How much, I don't know. Flash suppressors suppress flash. Some work better than others at that, but the degree to which they divert expanding gases at the muzzle is, I think, not sufficient to affect MV appreciably.
The effect that I saw is due to the way in which modern suppressors process expanding high energy gases. The suppressor doesn't differentiate between the air being pushed in front of the bullet, or the burning powder gases expanding behind it. There is a lot going on in there.
The internal plumbing in a modern suppressor redirects and disrupts that column of gases to a large degree, using the gases own energy against itself in various ways to strip it away, redirect it from a straight line. Take a look on the internet of some of the complex machining in a modern baffle stack and you will start to understand what they do, and how.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Originally posted by Dzurus:

So in terms of the game is there any reason not to use silencers?

Stop calling them by the wrong name! Even the developers are calling them Suppressors and that's all they do, they don't magically make your guns so quiet its not audible.