This game is overrated, I gotta say it.

[PokimaneIsMyQueen]

I cringe so hard when I see videos and people suggesting this game to all the walks of the earth. People say this game is amazing, it's the funnest they've ever had but it honestly from a design stand point. The game is very shallow. Especially compared to some of the games it takes inspiration from. Quake, or even some of the original Doom mods are objectively better is so many ways, maybe not from a technical standpoint but age is besides the point.

the multiplayer is a bunch of flash yet it has narrow debth. There is a movement system in this game, that has quite the learning curve, and can be utilized to demostrate the difference between an experienced player and a nooby, but I would say by the time I've gotten to G4, I've pretty much learned everything there is need to learn about it aside from some maybe niche grapple / stim usages.

Ideally if you want an interesting multiplayer you have to have a specific skill ceiling and learning cruve. This game has a learning curve but absolutly zero debth in the skill ceiling. You could make a case for live fire, but the fact that the game mode is just a load based system without any sort of risk or reward economy makes it very repitive and stale.
Certain weapons in specific areas on those maps are extremely OP, some of which dont have a solution.
Its the fact that this game has such basic game modes, low ttk, and spawns that are so random at times. I feel like this game was designed with giving people as little of a dopamine block from dying, and appease to the low attention span individual as possible, getting shot in the back, the many one shot weapons, sometimes damage feed back is super delayed. These are things that support a very camping esc style for a game that toughts itself as this movement based shooter.

It's also very narrow in its direction because often times visualizing where the enemy is on the map goes down to seeing where your teammates are dying on the mini map, or where the npcs are spawning.

TItan brawl has a sort of Overwatch teambased feeling to it, but i would even argue that Overwatch is also an overrate piece of garbage, at the end of the day these games are not really art, they are just entities created to appeal to the biggest audience to generate enough money. Which in this case, unfortunatly the gaming community is full of a bunch of degenerates who simply are loooking for a game to feed into their Dnd mentalities of wanting to play a game that allows them to pretend as though they are esports ready gaming shooter professionals. when in relality its just SBMM that's giving them opportunities to go up against high level players with a chance to win, because the enemy team gets polpped with a single person who is expected to carry against a team of average players. who know how to opperate in a teambased evirorment, in a shooter that has such a low skill ceiling.

You could make a case for the collusieum, but the game was clearly designed with TDm in mind, the titans, the kill streaks, if movement is all you really care about? i could go on a different tangent on how even that aspect isnt all that much better.

[Raziel]

Oof

[esturias]

I don't think it's over- or underrated, but it's indeed very shallow in most areas. I guess some of that is to blame on the early neglection by the devs, but a lot of it is because of design and the simple run&gun nature of the game.

[ressenmacher]

Originally posted by PokimaneIsMyQueen:

These are things that support a very camping esc style for a game that toughts itself as this movement based shooter.

Perhaps at middling or low skill levels, but at higher levels of play anybody attempting to sit still will be brutalized by the very low TTK, because the players will be surprised less (because they have better map knowledge and team coordination), but now one of them is moving in three dimensions at mach 9 and the other one is nearly stationary on the ground.

Originally posted by PokimaneIsMyQueen:

Quake, or even some of the original Doom mods are objectively better is so many ways, maybe not from a technical standpoint but age is besides the point.

I think TF2 has advantages over those. TF2 has a decently high skill ceiling, but imo the real value in its design is the skill floor. TF2 has ways for a player to earn momentary boosts in power (boosts such as the Smart Pistol, Ticks, sentries, and of course the Titans) that allow them to compete and succeed against mechanically superior opponents. Additionally, NPCs are present and can be killed easily by even an inexperienced player to build their meters and contribute to the match. Thus, the new player isn't subjected to the continual, brutal rape stomp that is the Quake multiplayer learning experience. They have moments in the match where they succeed and contribute, even if overall they can't stand up to their opposition. This doesn't feel as awful, so they're more likely to stick around.

Also, even if we agree that those games are significantly better than TF2, that doesn't mean it's overrated. Quake and Doom are some of the most successful, best remembered, and well put together games of all time. Saying "TF2 isn't as good/deep as Quake and Doom, so it's overrated" makes about as much sense as saying "the Hulk can't punch as hard as Superman or Goku, so he's weak." Like, no, you're comparing the subject to extreme outliers and then making an ill-considered generalization out of it.

Originally posted by PokimaneIsMyQueen:

...the gaming community is full of a bunch of degenerates who simply are loooking for a game to feed into their Dnd mentalities of wanting to play a game that allows them to pretend as though they are esports ready gaming shooter professionals. when in relality its just SBMM that's giving them opportunities to go up against high level players with a chance to win, because the enemy team gets polpped with a single person who is expected to carry against a team of average players. who know how to opperate in a teambased evirorment, in a shooter that has such a low skill ceiling.

It feels like your post just kind of degenerates into a rant about some nebulous casualisation of the gaming industry for a paragraph here. Like, do you have any proof that these assertions are correct? Any of them?

Regardless, I don't think most people are coming into games with the mindset or the ego that they are esport tier players, and I don't think that the intent of the game design is to force high level players to try and carry a bad team. The lack of matchmaking is more the result of a very small playerbase; adding it in would be nice and make fights more consistently equitable, but it would also heavily increase wait times which can already stretch to more than 15 minutes, longer even on less popular gamemodes.

Originally posted by PokimaneIsMyQueen:

Ideally if you want an interesting multiplayer you have to have a specific skill ceiling and learning cruve. This game has a learning curve but absolutly zero debth in the skill ceiling. You could make a case for live fire, but the fact that the game mode is just a load based system without any sort of risk or reward economy makes it very repitive and stale.
Certain weapons in specific areas on those maps are extremely OP, some of which dont have a solution.

To say that TF2 has no or a very low skill ceiling is reductionist and absurd. TF2 obviously has the movement, which I feel that you probably don't have as complete an understanding of as you claim based on your opinion regarding camping and your noted inability to perform some of the higher level grapple/stim techniques. But it also has the titan gameplay, which adds an entire layer to essentially everything. You have to understand the map layout both in terms of pilot gameplay and titan gameplay, you have to understand both pilot and titan matchups and also how the matchups between the classes work. You have to understand positioning as a pilot and as a titan and when you're in one of those groups fighting somebody from the other, etc.

What I'm trying to get at is that TF2 is a very dense game in terms of complexity because you have all the skills one needs to develop in your bog-standard FPS, but at the same time there's two major, deep, unique elements in the form of titans and the movement system which exponentially increase the amount of skill one needs to develop.

Could there be a higher skill ceiling? Yeah, probably. Some games, like Quake and the other TF2, do probably have a higher skill ceiling. But that ceiling's in a comparatively narrow room, with a focus on infantry combat. TF2 may have a lower ceiling, but it's a broad one spread across three different pillars of gameplay.

Originally posted by PokimaneIsMyQueen:

...Its the fact that this game has such basic game modes...

I mean, is that a bad thing? Complex games, exceedingly complex games even, often do have relatively simple gamemodes. CTF, TDM, these are shared with like every FPS on the market. Outside of that, there are fairly unique and slightly more complex modes in the form of Bounty Hunt, Livefire, and some of the seasonal stuff like that "kill target player/titan" one who's name I forget.

TLDR Your arguments revolve around drawing illogical conclusions from comparisons, forgo concrete examples or rational explanation in favor of a what seems to be a barely contained hatred for some kind of nebulous casualisation of the industry and strawman depictions of new players, and in some cases make little sense or don't actually advance your point.

I think you would make a stronger argument if you could more convincingly break down why the movement system, general pilot gameplay, and general titan gameplay each have a fairly low skill ceiling, as well as if you could go a bit more in depth regarding what the balance problems are and how they contribute to a degredation of the game, because as it stands you basically said they exist and didn't go further than that.

[🎃MaximusBlastalot🎃]

After skiming the op "becus its a novel" you took 4 paragraphs to basically say "the ttk is too short for pilots and the high rof hitscans are op+easy" which most experienced players will agree with. The "skill" in the game is 90% titans, projectile weapons and the movement.

Also grapple "breaks" the game at super high levels as you can start going "tribes speed" with it so saying niche isnt exactly correct.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

I think you would make a stronger argument if you could more convincingly break down why the movement system, general pilot gameplay, and general titan gameplay each have a fairly low skill ceiling, as well as if you could go a bit more in depth regarding what the balance problems are and how they contribute to a degredation of the game, because as it stands you basically said they exist and didn't go further than that.

As far as pilots go its because the skill floor with the call of duty hitscan is so high that outside of breaking ctf with grapple the mobility dosent matter as much as it should.

90% of what "saves" titan play is the long ttk and prevalence of projectiles.

[PokimaneIsMyQueen]

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

Perhaps at middling or low skill levels, but at higher levels of play anybody attempting to sit still will be brutalized by the very low TTK, because the players will be surprised less (because they have better map knowledge and team coordination), but now one of them is moving in three dimensions at mach 9 and the other one is nearly stationary on the ground.

It's actually very different when it comes to FPS, when i say camping my words are ususally twisted into being perceived as sitting on top of a building, or staying in a house watchign a few narrow corridors, or standing still behind a corner. Camping can still range to a bunch of different topics at least in my dictionary because there isn't really a term for this type of play style. You can argue that someone who only uses gurrilla warfare tactics, where they only play in a building and reframes from firing too many shots, because the maps are so big, it's not likely he'll get spotted unless he makes too much noise and several of the enemy catches on. He's given alot of opportunities to take out an easy kill, and since the movement in this game is so fast, he can usually run away and only shoot people when his teammates are around to refrag with. This may seem like the "high skill ceiling" that im asking for, but honestly it contributes to again i said a campy play style, which result in many players achieveing less than 10 kills in a game, and most play time beign spent watching through windows and waiting for good opportunitiies to fire at someone.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

I think TF2 has advantages over those. TF2 has a decently high skill ceiling, but imo the real value in its design is the skill floor. TF2 has ways for a player to earn momentary boosts in power (boosts such as the Smart Pistol, Ticks, sentries, and of course the Titans) that allow them to compete and succeed against mechanically superior opponents. Additionally, NPCs are present and can be killed easily by even an inexperienced player to build their meters and contribute to the match. Thus, the new player isn't subjected to the continual, brutal rape stomp that is the Quake multiplayer learning experience. They have moments in the match where they succeed and contribute, even if overall they can't stand up to their opposition. This doesn't feel as awful, so they're more likely to stick around.

Except most new players don't really stick around, I know this is besides the point you're making because the player count in this game isn't exactly high, so the SBMM will sometimes plop players into high level games where no matter what, they will get demloshed anyways despite the tools given to them. It's also a bit off topic so i dont really have a comment on it.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

Also, even if we agree that those games are significantly better than TF2, that doesn't mean it's overrated. Quake and Doom are some of the most successful, best remembered, and well put together games of all time. Saying "TF2 isn't as good/deep as Quake and Doom, so it's overrated" makes about as much sense as saying "the Hulk can't punch as hard as Superman or Goku, so he's weak." Like, no, you're comparing the subject to extreme outliers and then making an ill-considered generalization out of it.

Me saying that was more so to give an introduction and insight into why i bothered writing this for all the nit pickers are like, ohhhh this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, or ohhh he's jsut some noob who doesnt know anything about first person shooters. It was also more of a reply to all the people who constantly try to praise this game, like as though everyone should play it, but this game is one of the exact reasons why FPS perspective games are criticised for beign so shallow. Why so many people criticise them, and why i think they arent for everyone. Some people may find that working too hard to learn how to play such a complicated game is ruining alot of aspects t hat make such a game fun, but this one benifactor is the main thing that separates an RTS audience from an FPS audience. I also dont think i said TF2 is better than doom, i might have so i guess ill reitorate, my main point really is that alot of the negatives of this game get over looked. Doom eternal got critcised for having small platformign sections that didn't even last longer then 20 seconds between demons destruction in the Single player. Cyberpunk gets critcised for having nitpicked lifeless NPCs in t he background but no one ever said anything about the Witcher havign all this? Where's the extreme critics of titanfall? Well here I am, because im tired of playing this game and no one if adressign the negatives.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

It feels like your post just kind of degenerates into a rant about some nebulous casualisation of the gaming industry for a paragraph here. Like, do you have any proof that these assertions are correct? Any of them?

I don't actually hate gamers, I mean I'm a tier 3 sub for pokimane so if i call someone a degenerate i don't really expect anyone to take me seriously. My proof? well it's more of a hypotheses. full of crap perhaps, but if you wanna have a debate on how alot of other games are bare bones and casualized, then we can have that.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

Regardless, I don't think most people are coming into games with the mindset or the ego that they are esport tier players,

You ever watch streamers? you ever get screwed over in a game that has SBMM? maybe the streamer is over reacting, but to some extent when you watch people play, they do something bare bones and they over react to it, and to some extent some of the stuff they say is just meternal instincts coming out. I saw a bunch of jocks playing Apex legends in pub mode as a 3 stack killing randoms and talking some mad smack. It was the cringiest stream ive ever watched.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

and I don't think that the intent of the game design is to force high level players to try and carry a bad team. The lack of matchmaking is more the result of a very small playerbase; adding it in would be nice and make fights more consistently equitable, but it would also heavily increase wait times which can already stretch to more than 15 minutes, longer even on less popular gamemodes.

You play games with SBMM? I've played alot of games where the SBMM really screws you over, putting you up against players that you could demolish easily on your own, and the game expects you to do it all yourself. I still deal with this problem on valorant / apex / overwatcj / paladins / halo, insert other game that mighth ave higher player count then titanfall.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

To say that TF2 has no or a very low skill ceiling is reductionist and absurd. TF2 obviously has the movement, which I feel that you probably don't have as complete an understanding of as you claim based on your opinion regarding camping and your noted inability to perform some of the higher level grapple/stim techniques. But it also has the titan gameplay, which adds an entire layer to essentially everything. You have to understand the map layout both in terms of pilot gameplay and titan gameplay, you have to understand both pilot and titan matchups and also how the matchups between the classes work. You have to understand positioning as a pilot and as a titan and when you're in one of those groups fighting somebody from the other, etc.

Yeah all those things you've listed are very barebones things, I'm very fast on the battle field, i can get 20 - 30ish kills on pilot v pilots or attrition on the smaller maps. I don't really stream, but i'll record myself getting a high kill gameplay just for you if you'd like.
Yeah there is a pokimon water beats fire which beat grass which beats water esc meta between titans and weapons in this game, i however like it when games present things like aim or reflexes to be the pinical of all things when it comes to match up, I feel like apex legends trumps this game in that aspect because an R301 in that game if you track enough head shots can beat a r99 in close quarters. i dont think that's much of the case in titanfall considering how low the ttk is, and how stream lined the match up can be when both pilots are either flying or far apart. anything lesser then the formentioned is considered shallow to me.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

What I'm trying to get at is that TF2 is a very dense game in terms of complexity because you have all the skills one needs to develop in your bog-standard FPS, but at the same time there's two major, deep, unique elements in the form of titans and the movement system which exponentially increase the amount of skill one needs to develop.

Could there be a higher skill ceiling? Yeah, probably. Some games, like Quake and the other TF2, do probably have a higher skill ceiling. But that ceiling's in a comparatively narrow room, with a focus on infantry combat. TF2 may have a lower ceiling, but it's a broad one spread across three different pillars of gameplay.

I dont get it, i guess you're trying to say is that TF2 has a high skill ceiling in an aspect that is orginal from other games? well if that's the case, it's a very campy esc direction.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

I mean, is that a bad thing? Complex games, exceedingly complex games even, often do have relatively simple gamemodes. CTF, TDM, these are shared with like every FPS on the market. Outside of that, there are fairly unique and slightly more complex modes in the form of Bounty Hunt, Livefire, and some of the seasonal stuff like that "kill target player/titan" one who's name I forget.

did I say basic? i guess i meant to say lame. I like to have some form of control or conformitty, less random spawns in attritions / pilots v pilots, the low player counts makes the onyl game modes i consider to be good, demolition CTF and bounty hunt dead for the most part of the day. Other wise que times are attrocious.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

TLDR Your arguments revolve around drawing illogical conclusions from comparisons, forgo concrete examples or rational explanation in favor of a what seems to be a barely contained hatred for some kind of nebulous casualisation of the industry and strawman depictions of new players, and in some cases make little sense or don't actually advance your point.

Yes i do hate todays games, your point? I'm an angry boomer who is saying "Back in my day we had to work to have fun." there is no point, i should of just ignored this paragraph. dont just say my argument is illogical, explain how it is illogical.

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

I think you would make a stronger argument if you could more convincingly break down why the movement system, general pilot gameplay, and general titan gameplay each have a fairly low skill ceiling, as well as if you could go a bit more in depth regarding what the balance problems are and how they contribute to a degredation of the game, because as it stands you basically said they exist and didn't go further than that.

I'll do it in a different post, because it woudl require alot of writing, or maybe even a video. I kind of added a listed of basic terms such as low ttk, narrow choices in gaining speed, random nature of spawns, large maps, and none recoil gunplay. I just assumed most high level players woudl catch on to the message i was writing.

[PokimaneIsMyQueen]

Originally posted by 🎃MaximusBlastalot🎃:

After skiming the op "becus its a novel" you took 4 paragraphs to basically say "the ttk is too short for pilots and the high rof hitscans are op+easy" which most experienced players will agree with. The "skill" in the game is 90% titans, projectile weapons and the movement.

I mean yeah that's obvious, but a majority of this game is a laodout based system with OP hitscan weapons. The colluseum is the only game mode that considers true skill because of this fact but it's like 10% of the content made for this game.

[StuckInWashingMachine]

Imagine having so much time in your life that you end up writing this much. Don't you think it'd be better spent on Pokimane's discord? maybe you can write to her instead.
convince the woman to sleep with you?

[PokimaneIsMyQueen]

Originally posted by WittyPikachu (Kitty):

Imagine having so much time in your life that you end up writing this much. Don't you think it'd be better spent on Pokimane's discord? maybe you can write to her instead and convince the woman to sleep with you?

Are you implying that im a virgin?

[StuckInWashingMachine]

Originally posted by PokimaneIsMyQueen:

Originally posted by WittyPikachu (Kitty):

Imagine having so much time in your life that you end up writing this much. Don't you think it'd be better spent on Pokimane's discord? maybe you can write to her instead and convince the woman to sleep with you?

Are you implying that im a virgin?

no

[esturias]

Originally posted by WittyPikachu (Kitty):

Imagine having so much time in your life that you end up writing this much.

You have >1000 games on your account, with >100 hours on many of those. You seem to have MUCH more free time.

[StuckInWashingMachine]

Originally posted by esturias:

Originally posted by WittyPikachu (Kitty):

Imagine having so much time in your life that you end up writing this much.

You have >1000 games on your account, with >100 hours on many of those. You seem to have MUCH more free time.

Yeah but time flies when you're gaming.

[esturias]

Originally posted by WittyPikachu (Kitty):

Originally posted by esturias:

You have >1000 games on your account, with >100 hours on many of those. You seem to have MUCH more free time.

Yeah but time flies when you're gaming.

So does it fly when writing something. Plus, it's also good for your brain.

[StuckInWashingMachine]

Originally posted by esturias:

Originally posted by WittyPikachu (Kitty):

Yeah but time flies when you're gaming.

So does it fly when writing something. Plus, it's also good for your brain.

there's a ted talk somewhere illustrating that video games are also "Good for your brain." what ever that means.

[NuclearToast™]

In my grandpa's day, he talked about "armchair quarterbacks" that watched football on TV and knew better than the team or the coach what they should've done.

Welcome to the world of "gaming chair developers".

[PokimaneIsMyQueen]

Originally posted by NuclearToast:

In my grandpa's day, he talked about "armchair quarterbacks" that watched football on TV and knew better than the team or the coach what they should've done.

Welcome to the world of "gaming chair developers".

Sorry to say this, but your grandpa was a very foolish person. only the girl from the ring can make telivision a reality, not football players.