why is tone a thing

[Atte]

pls

[A Bonafide Skeleton]

If you're having trouble with Ronin just go Scorch and watch them panic as you barbecue them.
Tone is trickier but not unbeatable, the key is to know how to dodge her rockets, once you have that down she's not nearly as bad to deal with.
You know which titan I DO fear though? Monarch.

[Lolzguyl 2.0]

sidewinder_G a écrit :

Tone going up against Ronin, Ion and Legion is dumb.
Ronin going up against Legion, Scorch and Monarch is dumb.
Ion going up against Scorch, Legion and Ronin is dumb.
Scorch going up against anyone at long range is dumb.
Northstar going up anyone at close range is dumb.
Monarch going up against Legion, Tone or Ion is dumb.
Legion going up against Scorch, Ion or Northstar is dumb.

Now, while the list above is how I picture things in my head, there are two MAJOR factors that come into play when deciding to engage a titan, besides player skill because the rock paper scissors nature of the titan classes closes the gap.

Assuming both are of equal skill and it's a LTS 1v1:

Ronin v legion falls in the favor of ronin. For ronin, the main goal is poking away at legion whilst minimizing damage taken to get core with as much health as possible. His kit very much lends itself this. Ronin closes the gap, poking from cover/corners continuously with shotgun shots/arc wave. Preserving his phase dash to avoid a power shot when needed, important for ronin to keep track of power shot cooldown. Ronin continues to do so as safely as possible until he gains core and outright kills legion. Only time it falls in the favor of legion is if the skill gap is significant enough to offset the matchup.

Ronin beats scorch quite handily even with the wildfire meta becoming more prominent in 1s. With ronin's multiple tools aiding him in spacing/damage mitigation, scorch will have a very hard time punishing ronin using any ground/close range attacks. That's 80% of scorch's kit invalidated by ronin's mobility/defensive not including core. Since scorch isn't able to rely anything but his primary for higher damage, it boils down to dealing with that and mind games with thermal shield. Which since arc wave can pierce thermal shield unreasonably consistently, it becomes a lot easier. Ronin uses the aptly named shot-block tech to bait out scorch's primary fire, once he has to reload, ronin is able to punish that reload freely, lest scorch use his thermal shield, in which case ronin gets off a free arc wave. Even if scorch were to get off the reload, he'd have no thermal shield left if he kept trying to predict when ronin would shoot due to its' heavy activation cost, effectively allowing ronin to punish without hindrance after. Ronin continues to position out of any fire scorch places, keeps track of when scorch gets core, gets sword core by gradually exploiting the fact that scorch can't mitigate damage or kill him fast enough.

Northstar has more than sufficient mobility to space out any opponent.

Monarch's comes the closest to being a hard counter to ronin. But unless that monarch's name is Dinorush, i'm not concerned. The general concept is that monarch uses her near equal mobility (turbo engine + rapid rearm) to continuously space out ronin, siphoning if shields are in play, pressuring ronin with X0-16 chip damage into blocking whenever in her line of sight, dashing backwards and shooting whenever ronin goes for a punish, ronin has some counterplay, but all of it relies on monarch making one or more mistakes.

Ion beats scorch quite handily on any map that isn't complex or crash site. Any other map makes it too difficult for scorch to get significant damage on ion since he can't lock down vital parts of the map using canisters, all other maps lacks in close quarters, and corners that scorch can play around to mitigate ion's poking. Ion v legion is still in ion's favor, even though legion has a significant amount counterplay, a good ion will know how to deny him those options. Ion v ronin is in favor of ronin.

Scorch being on his best map, the only place where it's fair for him, he beats out ion, and legion. Quite even against tone, but no titan in that matchup has the clear advantage.

Monarch v legion is heavily in legion's favor. No argument here.

Monarch v tone is an outright brawl, it's in tone's favor but it depends on how good monarch is at dealing with particle wall and dodging tracker rockets.

Monarch will however quite handily beat ion. The general idea is monarch positions passively until she lands 1+ siphon on ion to rid ion of her overshields if batteries were pulled. To follow up, monarch wants to close the distance on ion and force a close range engagement. At that range, ion loses out on her poking power and the positioning puts more emphasis on mind games. Monarch's goal is to land as many chain gun punishes between vortex drops as possible, at the same time, ion wants to vortex as little as she can, it's the same mind game seen in legion vs ion. What adds to this is monarch's other abilities, since her primary weapon fires instantly on trigger pulls, she can freely melee whenever ion holds vortex, without concern for significant times to return to being able to fire. Siphon is a great tool to pressure ion during vortex stuttering, greatly aided by monarch being able to melee cancel and fake out ion and continue maintaining pressure. If the ion is only managing vortex when monarch has ammo, using her salvos during a reload is a good way to catch ion off guard, however their main use is to follow up melees to cover for the time it takes to bring chain gun back up. Monarch can use these abilities to constantly remain unpredictable by alternating patterns of attack and win trades consistently. Rearm is an added bonus that allows monarch to evade/chase ion down, maintain pressure through abilities, or it's used for both those things. Whilst ion can get her core first if she runs overcore, it tends not to change the outcome. Unless monarch was at a severe disadvantage due to having lost previous trades, she'd be able to burst ion down => termination before laser core could do significant damage, and if the monarch gets her first core (arc rounds), ion will definitely lose the engagement.

Legion vs scorch is only in scorch's favor on certain maps. On any other maps aside from 1-2, legion wins. Scorch simply can't prevent legion from keeping him at arms length if the map doesn't aid him. As mentioned earlier, the match up that is legion vs ion is highly dependent on the players. Provided the ion is on point with mind games, she can win. If the legion knows how to work down vortex and land power shots before vortex/bypass vortex, the fight can quickly turn in legion's favor. Disregarding mirrors, legion is northstar's only counter. No other titan can punish her as heavily for exposing herself for slightly too long. If she makes one wrong move, or hovers at the wrong time, she'll often lose such a significant amount of health she won't be able to recover. However since northstar is the more mobile titan, she tends to dictate the pace of the engagement more than legion does, allowing her to outplay him.

[Lolzguyl 2.0]

A Bonafide Skeleton a écrit :

If you're having trouble with Ronin just go Scorch and watch them panic as you barbecue them.
Tone is trickier but not unbeatable, the key is to know how to dodge her rockets, once you have that down she's not nearly as bad to deal with.
You know which titan I DO fear though? Monarch.

Monarch. Northstar if you're comfortable is a far better pick to deter ronin. Scorch will get beat by ronin quite handily. In short, ronin's mobility allows him to circumvent/avoid all of scorch's ground based attacks, that includes his core, in the farily unlikely scenario that he can't, ronin can block the core, effectively reducing the damage from 4500, to 1350. Arc wave is a consistent way to bypass thermal shield whenever scorch tries to mitigate damage with it by aiming it at a 30 degree angle, causing it to go around the shield and hit scorch. The rest is a matter of using well timed shot-blocks (creative, i know) to bait scorch into firing his primary, causing him to reload, which is the most significant window that ronin can punish.

[SammyToeJr]

Roulu a écrit :

pls

its a new player Friendly op Titan to give newer players a fighting Chance agaisnt pro vets, i dont argee with making things harder or easyer based on time played but hey the devs just had to have this game with out SBMM so this is the next best thing best i can say is Leave the game or Deal with it.

[ToryJJ]

Ronin's the melee mech right? its garbage, just a noob stomper. Scorch runs it over. If you wanna complain about a noob mech complain about scorch, it does everything and has more HP. edit: I played the game years ago now, got it for like 5 USD on origin. Was decent fun for a bit. But the meta slavery and overall dead af playerbase full of really only maxed players with kitted out builds got old real fast. Dropped it in under a month.

[Lolzguyl 2.0]

Twitch.tv/ToryJJ a écrit :

Ronin's the melee mech right? its garbage, just a noob stomper. Scorch runs it over. If you wanna complain about a noob mech complain about scorch, it does everything and has more HP. edit: I played the game years ago now, got it for like 5 USD on origin. Was decent fun for a bit. But the meta slavery and overall dead af playerbase full of really only maxed players with kitted out builds got old real fast. Dropped it in under a month.

While ronin tends to be a common pick for stompers/tryhards, there is far more to him than that. Melees for ronin, while they have their uses, won't be his primary damage source outside of core.

Things ronin does that scorch can't/does worse: Start off with the obvious, Core damage potential. Sword core: 26400 damage. 2500 is one titan health bar for reference. Flame core: 4500 damage.

Ronin's contrary to scorch's defensive isn't exploitable except for one rare bug that's easily denied. Scorch's thermal shield on the other hand can be shot past by aiming at scorch's toes due to the thermal shield hitbox not being large enough to cover scorch's. Laser shot, CR power shot, energy siphon, predator cannon, X0-16, vortex bullet reflects. Can also be consistently pierced by arc wave.

Mobility => map control on any map that's not complex, or crash site => contesting/controlling/taking batteries in LTS.

Versatility. Ronin can slot in as a tank/distraction/scout/DPS/pressuring tool. Sword block allows him to tank. Scorch's fairly short defensive timer and its' lack of coverage makes scorch a poor tank since he'll be taken out of the game/feed core % for free to the enemy titans. Often both.

Ronin's tanky nature due to constant 70% damage reduction with a quick raise speed allows him to draw focus off of a teammate for them to recover or escape, or draw attention away from a part of the map, effectively allowing his team to push up uncontested. Scorch cannot do this for the same reason he cannot tank. A blocking ronin will have more health than an ogre chassis such as scorch anyway.

Lastly, a lot of what you're talking about, whilst it will always be present in any game you choose to play, their are far more new players (PC) running around these days, a lot of PC players have drifted away from the meta nowadays anyway. Those that follow it blindly still exist, as they always will. However, provided you're a decent player, your skill can quite handily make up for the deficit of non meta weapons/loadouts/playstyles.

I don't think basing any conclusions off of experiences had years ago benefits anyone.

Scorch is too slow and too easy to pin down for a scout. Ronin has tools to heavily mitigate damage and get in and out without anything or anyone able to prevent him from doing so.

Scorch's higher sustained DPS is reliant on the enemy making the mistake of standing in fire, which no semi competent player will do. His launcher's inconsistent mechanics, single shot nature, slow reload and okay travel time, all contribute to lower damage output. No titan when faced with a ronin has the tools to fully deny his options for damage. If they hold a defensive, they get melee'd/arc waved, if it's a thermal shield, dash back + arc wave, if they do neither, they get shot. Legion gets poked by all of the damaging abilities above except melee.

Scorch can using canisters stall an enemy team, he can even push them out of a vital part of the map, but in terms of pressure (burst damage) once canisters are depleted, there is nothing that would prevent a push against scorch, unless he wants to engage in a 2+v1 scenario. Scorch being notoriously weak to being double teamed, makes that something to avoid at all costs.

[Lolzguyl 2.0]

SammyToeJr a écrit :

Roulu a écrit :

pls

its a new player Friendly op Titan to give newer players a fighting Chance agaisnt pro vets, i dont argee with making things harder or easyer based on time played but hey the devs just had to have this game with out SBMM so this is the next best thing best i can say is Leave the game or Deal with it.

Tone is far from OP. She was at launch, that was solely due to the salvo core's damage being far too high. 12000 then, nerfed to 10 800, then again to 8400. Which is where it is today.

Tone is okay. Her power is somewhat diminished due to how popular of a pick ronin tends to be. Especially in titan only modes. Good sustained DPS. Good burst damage that can be used to pressure enemies. Moderate defensive due to the various answers certain titans have, however stationary. Moderate core. Low damage primary with lower than average ROF. This wasn't common knowledge the first few months after the game's release, but ever since march 2017, the tech for dodging tracker rockets has been publicly available. Nowadays, "tone OP" is either a memory from the past, or a meme that for some inexplicable reason hasn't died down yet.

[SammyToeJr]

Lolzguyl 2.0 a écrit :

SammyToeJr a écrit :

its a new player Friendly op Titan to give newer players a fighting Chance agaisnt pro vets, i dont argee with making things harder or easyer based on time played but hey the devs just had to have this game with out SBMM so this is the next best thing best i can say is Leave the game or Deal with it.

Tone is far from OP. She was at launch, that was solely due to the salvo core's damage being far too high. 12000 then, nerfed to 10 800, then again to 8400. Which is where it is today.

Tone is okay. Her power is somewhat diminished due to how popular of a pick ronin tends to be. Especially in titan only modes. Good sustained DPS. Good burst damage that can be used to pressure enemies. Moderate defensive due to the various answers certain titans have, however stationary. Moderate core. Low damage primary with lower than average ROF. This wasn't common knowledge the first few months after the game's release, but ever since march 2017, the tech for dodging tracker rockets has been publicly available. Nowadays, "tone OP" is either a memory from the past, or a meme that for some inexplicable reason hasn't died down yet.

i see more tones then Ronins though... and i'd argue tone is op becuase 1v1 shes VERY stong she can take free damage at you with you being abble to do the same at med range and if you case her she can move to her buddys and double team you its very strong mean while she has two powers that dont need aim or very little of it and one that gives wall hacks to the whole time and lastly a wall that can be upgraded to counter most titans her main weapon is the only thing thats bad about her everything else is great... so i mean...

[Lolzguyl 2.0]

Ishan451 a écrit :

El Buhdai a écrit :

So tell me, how am I supposed to not be screwed when I see a skilled Ronin at medium range or closer?

Sorry, i must have missed your answer/question.

Tone has comparable mobility to Ronin, which means if you keep track of its movements and use your dash to counter his, you can keep him at bay. Especially if he uses phase to try to close to you. If you can keep distance to him so that his Phase will be used to get him into close range, then you can simply dash in his direction the second you see him phase. That means he will phase right past you and while he needs to reorient himself, you already know where he will be.

This leaves you time to turn around, and hit him a few more times, building the missiles. His dash isn't going to be sooner of cooldown than yours. You have 2500 more HP than the Ronin.. and if both of you are equally skilled, then you should win due to your health advantage (assuming he didn't get the jump on you). Also don't forget your electric smoke, which not only refreshs whenever you use your ultimate, but also can blind him, which gives you more time to get distance again.

And this might sound like irony, but if you struggle against Ronin then play Ronin for a while. You'll learn its limitations.

Aside from the fact that ronin's dashes make him travel further, has synergy with phase dash = phase boosting. Tone being even remotely close to comparable to ronin in terms of mobility, requires turbo engine, even that won't completely cover it. Not to mention, for tone to access two dashes, she'd have to wait for 10s. 10s no dashing. Another letter on that death warrant. that match up without overcore on tone is going to be a steamroll. From the tone v ronin matchups i've played and seen, salvo core (core those toes!) comes in clutch against sword core. Not getting your core before/at the same time as ronin would be guaranteed death. There isn't much that can be done to offset ronin's huge favor in this match up, however it is more even than previously thought.

Two examples from the best tone on xbox, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5rWIuZ1MIE&t=2s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bPEYYnSdKE

[Ishan451]

Lolzguyl 2.0 a écrit :

Tone being even remotely close to comparable to ronin in terms of mobility, requires turbo engine

Why would you slot anything else? You shouldn't be close enough to the enemy to need stealth eject or nuke. You probably aren't going to auto titan... the 20% extra starting core seems like a waste... so why would you pick anything but Turbo engine, which helps you to get out of trouble and behind cover?

[Lolzguyl 2.0]

i see more tones then Ronins though... and i'd argue tone is op becuase 1v1 shes VERY stong she can take free damage at you with you being abble to do the same at med range and if you case her she can move to her buddys and double team you its very strong mean while she has two powers that dont need aim or very little of it and one that gives wall hacks to the whole time and lastly a wall that can be upgraded to counter most titans her main weapon is the only thing thats bad about her everything else is great... so i mean...


Tone being more popular in pubs doesn't speak to how strong she is whatsoever.

Tone is quite poor in 1v1s. Her wall loses a significant amount of power since at range, the other titan has no reason to remain in tone's line of sight, and since no teammates are there to deny a push, closing the gap and transitioning into close range and walking through the wall when it is deployed becomes a guarantee if you choose it to be. If it's a 1v1, no buddies* exist. Whilst tracker rockets hone in on the target, doesn't mean you don't need to/shouldn't aim them. She only has the potential for free midrange damage if you let her. Sonar pulse revealing where you are is largely negligible, especially in 1v1s where no else is there to benefit from knowing where you are. it's the unpreventable lock that gives it power. The freedom of a 1v1 makes it much harder for tone to land a salvo punish since the enemy can put all resources towards blocking/intercepting their salvos. She really only excels against ion and monarch due to being their counter. Soft counter to legion, but legion has so many options for counterplay vs tone so it's not as one sided as a counter pick normally would be.

Particle wall is far from a counter to all titans if it's reinforced. 1 single arc wave from ronin will still destroy it. A fully charged shot + a 4/5 charged shot from northstar will destroy it, that takes 4.05s to do. Monarch can salvo => rearm => salvo to destroy reinforced wall. Legion/ion/scorch are those that struggle a bit more, However they can still break line of sight and wait it out or push up and walk through/around it. Another tone can provided she already has locks, use a tracker rocket (rocket barrage) salvo + some 40mm shots to destroy it.

For one, simply firing in a straight line will cause them to go straight into a wall if the locked on target is behind them, so curving them is recommend. Secondly, only firing them directly forwards makes is extremely predictable, and that way, the opponent knows how to dash dodge them every time. The mind game with moderate - good players is: How will the enemy anticipate me to curve my rockets and dodge them? How should i change how i curve them to make their dodge ineffective? If they anticipate the change, how do i should i curve differently?

A fun little statistic from a recent 3v3 LTS tournament, out of 133 rounds sampled, ronin was picked on both teams 100% of the time, ion was picked 79.3%, and legion was picked 51.9% of the time. Out of all 133 rounds, tone was only picked 18.4% of the time. 24 rounds total. If she truly is as strong as you believe, why wasn't she picked 100% of the time by some of the best competitive LTS players worldwide?

[Lolzguyl 2.0]

Why would you slot anything else? You shouldn't be close enough to the enemy to need stealth eject or nuke. You probably aren't going to auto titan... the 20% extra starting core seems like a waste... so why would you pick anything but Turbo engine, which helps you to get out of trouble and behind cover? [/quote]


Watch the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bPEYYnSdKE. You see plenty of examples where if Lethal hadn't ran overcore, he would've lost. In any of the scenarios in the video, are you really telling me that waiting 5s for another dash would've truly made a difference for the better?

The issue with turbo engine on any titan but ogres is that to get back 2 or 3 dashes, having 1 or 2 stored dashes (depending on which titan chassis you are) is required for a 2nd or 3rd dash to start recharging. Waiting 10s without dashing as tone vs ronin is signing your death warrant. If you aren't dashing every 5s, you are setting yourself at a unnecessary disadvantage.

[A Bonafide Skeleton]

SammyToeJr a écrit :

i see more tones then Ronins though

You see more Tones than Ronins because Tone has a considerably lower skill floor but also a very low skill ceiling.
As more people start to improve Tone will start falling off a little and the other titans become more "viable" so to speak, especially when you figure out how to dodge Tone's rockets.
Here's a helpful video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CwGWEAP7lI&t=

[SammyToeJr]

A Bonafide Skeleton a écrit :

SammyToeJr a écrit :

i see more tones then Ronins though

You see more Tones than Ronins because Tone has a considerably lower skill floor but also a very low skill ceiling.
Once people become better with the other titans Tone becomes much less useful, especially when you figure out how to dodge her rockets.
Here's a helpful video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CwGWEAP7lI&t=

yea ok i can agree to that but i mean i think alot of people use tone mostly because they dont wanna think about S*** too hard they just wanna be in a cool robot mecc tank killer thingy T2 looking A** so they can have fun, but as soon as you have to put alot of Gray matter into your robot players get turned off there like " dude i came home form my 9-5 to enjoy what little time i got left F*** working hard i just wanna have fun!" or you know maybe thats the weed talking who knows..

[El Buhdai]

Lolzguyl 2.0 a écrit :

Why would you slot anything else? You shouldn't be close enough to the enemy to need stealth eject or nuke.

So I don't snipe you out of the air with the 40mm at any range. 6 - 7 years of Titanfall 1 and 2 experience is a dangerous thing lol.