Still way too much RNG, not enough variety

[Xavori]

Let me begin by saying (because this disclaimer has become a must when trying to offer constructive criticism) that I like the game. Obviously. I've played over 100 hours, and it's still fun to jump in and see how fast I can get to platinum albums. Heck, I've even wrote a strategy guide for this one.

Which is also kinda how I saw the obvious problem...

My original strategy guide made really clear that having that single RNG-decided hit song was everything. That's no longer the case in the same way given changes to the game. But as I started to update the guide to reflect those changes, I realized it was still going to be a step-by-step recipe with no need for conditionals or any type of reaction from players. Just follow these steps and tada, success.

What's more, RNG is still vastly more important than anything a player does. Your band popularity is now tied to having multiple hit songs which in turn are, wait for it, essentially pure RNG. You need to hit the obvious right lyrics at the right time and do so while getting the right shapes rolled in your song creation. And even if you do that, it's no guarantee that by the time you're ready to throw that song out to audiences, that attitude won't have just randomly changed. Worse, you can have what I'm dealing with where one month Anarchy quit being a thing after being popular for most of the game. Then, a month later, Law and Order was suddenly a thing essentially making my best songs bad despite that having no way to see that coming or prepare for it. Just wake up one morning and none of your fans like their favorite songs anymore because reasons.

I'm also going to lose my newest band member because reasons. She's making money. She's a perfect match for every other member of the band in attitudes, but it doesn't matter. For some reason, she's going to quit at the end of my current tour because. apparently I didn't make a large enough sacrifice to RNGeezus.

Not that either of these 'challenges' actually matter in any meaningful way to my band's success. Sure, I'm not going to ping out the meter for a bit during gigs, and having to train up yet another band member is annoying, but success is still guaranteed without me ever having to turn my brain from low to medium (and ya, I'm playing hardest difficulty which just makes things a teensy bit grindier, not harder).

Now to come up with ideas how to improve this since I really do like the game and want it to be more funnerer :D

[Dragoon]

I really. Really. Reaaaaaaaallllly dislike the attitude RNG. They play too much of a factor in how songs are liked and are way too random. I love song types, but I hate their 'trending' and 'untrending' statuses.

[Xavori]

Originally posted by Dragoon:

I really. Really. Reaaaaaaaallllly dislike the attitude RNG. They play too much of a factor in how songs are liked and are way too random. I love song types, but I hate their 'trending' and 'untrending' statuses.

To me, the biggest problem with them is that you have absolutely no way of knowing what is going to happen, nor anything that you can really do about it anyway.

It's also beyond silly to think Taylor Swift's fans are all going to start hating 1/3 of her songs because Haters Gonna Hate Hate Hate is now a good thing ;)

However, it's not really and worse than any of the other RNG-ruled elements of the game that make it far less of a strategy/tycoon game than it could be.

[halfbaked2001]

Bet that one that's going to quit is high in ego and likes to repair things that they can't do on tours.

[Xavori]

Originally posted by halfbaked2001:

Bet that one that's going to quit is high in ego and likes to repair things that they can't do on tours.

Heh. That's the thing. I know to watch for ego despite the game not really warning you about it.

The problem is she was a songwriter who was just starting out in a band where having a max skill songwriter was literally my first goal (and my main character's job). So she's most likely upset that I'm not using any of her song ideas in songs we're currently using on the tour.

Of course, I'm not using any of the songs I've written on the tour because you don't have time to practice when you're driving town to town, and if the game's characters had even the teensiest bit of rationality in their decisions, that'd be something the new girl would acknowledge along with the fact she's still learning versus the 100 skill character so her ideas really aren't that good in comparison.

So if we're on tour, it shouldn't come up. Or, alternatively, if the best thing she's written is 10 while another songwriter is writing 35, she should just hunker down and keep working on it.

[Eeyore Donkey Donk]

I hired the band totally for their egos after my first few learning attempts, all are below 30 and nobody is ever unhappy. Some were in the 17% hating each other to start but I just changed attitudes the first few months before we had any gigs and nobody cared. It's now December 2013, band is still together with the original members, and the only complaint was a from my first manager who wanted me to fire the bass player early on, so I fired the manager instead.

[Bohemian Rap City]

There is a strategy that allows you to, somewhat, mitigate the attitude changes. Any bar/club where you have decent popularity allows you to mingle with patrons and learn what attitudes will become popular in the near future. This allows you to begin writing songs for a new upcoming attitude. This becomes even more valuable if there is a non-attitude trend going on (high energy, instrumental, etc.) this frees your own songwriter's attitudes to start writing material in advance.

Even when there is only regular attitudes prevalent, the clubs will let you know which current attitude is going to be replaced.

For example, if Religion, Straight Arrow and Love are all current attitudes, you hit a few local clubs where you are popular and everyone is talking about Straight Arrow, Love and Sports Cars, but only one or two mention Religion, it is a pretty good bet that the next change in attitude will drop Religion for Sports cars. This allows you to make a good guess on which of your own three attitudes (all of which are currently popular) you should change asap.

I find that at the worst I am forewarned for every attitude change. At best I can learn two or more upcoming attitudes in advance.

[Tarithel]

I am finding it quite easy to spot what the next popular attitudes are likely to be by looking at what people are thinking in small bars where I have reputation. Just spot ones being thought of that are not currently popular.

Regarding OP comments, maybe it would be possible to have a band genre in addition to attitudes, something with a lot more long term buy in then attitude which is harder for band to change but total possible fans is tied to more.

[Bohemian Rap City]

Originally posted by Tarithel:

Regarding OP comments, maybe it would be possible to have a band genre in addition to attitudes, something with a lot more long term buy in then attitude which is harder for band to change but total possible fans is tied to more.

Genre has been discussed....a LOT. Todd has been pretty good about explaining why it would be problematic.

[Oobie]

Since hits are NECESSARY, there should be some way to generate them, at least 'at some point' enough to keep the game balanced and fun. My last two games I've had one total, plus a few (3-4) toe tappers and gave up. Unacceptable, no fun. Like the game but I doubt I'll try again unless this gets addressed somehow.

[Bohemian Rap City]

You are probably failing to recognize the hits...at best 1 in 20 should be a hit, at worst 1 in 100. It is random, true, but most players have no problem generating a career after they learn the rules and basic gameplay.

Every song above 30 quality has the potential to be a hit. Any song that you have rehearsed above 80 play skill should tell you whether it is a hit after 1 gig.

[Eeyore Donkey Donk]

My end of 2014 songwriting/performance summary over 1829 gigs:
521 Songs Written
111 Songs Recorded
346 Songs Forgotten
15 Major Hits (reached 100 Popularity) - so 2.8% of songs written.
19 Lesser Hits ( locked at 72/79/81/83/94/99 Popularity - yes one got stuck at 99) - 3.6%
(Non hits seem to cap at 19/25/31 Popularity).
I would say Bohemian Rap City is right on target with the estimate of 1/20, as my total for all hits would be 5.4%.

Songwriters: I have 2x100 skill writing lyrics and 2x100 skill with boost writing music, and a 100 skill producer to help develop song fragments.

What I refer to as lesser hits have the "loved the song/toe tapper/danced" type comments to the song, but never make it to a 100 popularity. Non-hits are "loved the performance, or enjoyed the performance" and those will lock up at 19, 25 or 31 if I keep them in the rotation long enough. I've also had a few songs where the comment was to the effect of the audience didn't pay any attention to the song, and those I trashed right after the gig.

I also have gone through long stretches of 5-6 months with no hits at all, and also a few times I had multiple hits at the same time. The highest one gig popularity increase I've seen so far is a +18. It's noticeable when a hit has peaked, they abruptly stop getting any performance popularity, and as far as I can tell once a hit has a gig without an increase it won't get any more. Non-hits get bonuses off and on until they hit a cap and can go many gigs without one, probably why they are not hits.

My gigs at this point resemble an oldies band that still tries to be relevant and releases new material, where there are only two or three out of twelve songs that are at all recently written. If a song says "enjoyed the performance" it's scrapped right away. If it's "loved the performance" it will cap somewhere between 19 and 31, and I'll take it out of rotation when it does that. Those that hit 31 will be recorded to be used as filler for CDs prior to being archived. One of my songs that was written in March of 2011 has been played 627 times and still gets "has potential" in the comments.

[Bohemian Rap City]

Originally posted by Eeyore Donkey Donk:

My end of 2014 songwriting/performance summary over 1829 gigs:
521 Songs Written
111 Songs Recorded
346 Songs Forgotten
15 Major Hits (reached 100 Popularity) - so 2.8% of songs written.
19 Lesser Hits ( locked at 72/79/81/83/94/99 Popularity - yes one got stuck at 99) - 3.6%
(Non hits seem to cap at 19/25/31 Popularity).

Wow Donk, you really went deep into the data collection. Hat's off to you for that, as I am just too lazy to spreadsheet and track data. It takes a lot of dedication and perseverance.

Seriously, I am totally overwhelmed.

One question I have for you.

When you said you had 15 major hits that reached 100 popularity and a lot of lesser hits that capped out, I assume you meant that they were not continually tracked after the next album was created.

In my games, I notice that I may have a new Album in the top 100 while the 4 prior albums are still charting between 600-1000. I look at my archived songs from those old albums and see that some of the non-hits (songs with no specific mention in crowd reaction) have hit 100 popularity just based on longevity.

[Eeyore Donkey Donk]

I find that the songs don't lose popularity, but I never noticed any gain if i'm not playing them in concert and they are archived. My thought was once I stop playing them live they remain wherever they were. I find lesser hits just stop gaining popularity in concerts, and once they stop at one of the magic numbers they cease to increase. Sucks when they get into the 90s and die. So you're thinking if the album is charting the songs should still continue to gain popularity? My archived 100's to my knowledge were 100 when I archived them.

[Bohemian Rap City]

Ya. Just like having your 1st and 4th albums going platinum on the same day. The old albums are still selling and that makes all the songs on the album gain popularity. So, if a song caps at 91 it might still get 100 a year after you archive it.

At least, that was how it was doing when I last checked it. There may have been changes from the last few patches. To be honest, until your post I had not been checking.

[Eeyore Donkey Donk]

I think all 9 of my albums are still on the charts, I need to start paying attention to my archives now to see if they actually change popularity :)