More stats or categorization of songs.

[AlterEgo45]

After playing a while, it becomes clear that the song rating is only half of the battle. It's really all about how much the song pops with the crowd. I've got a mid level band now, writing songs that are in the 60's. But one of my top songs is rated 23, and the best song I've ever written, a 71, fell flat.

Right now I rename my songs according to their performance in concerts. Hits get a +++ after them, all the way down to a - which means I will remove the song as soon as I have trained the band up in its replacement. But that system is a bit crude.

I'd like to see one of two things:

1. Have a way of subdividing the song list, so I could set apart hits from 'spear carrier' songs which aren't on the same level but never get less than 4 stars, from mediocre songs that I would only play in a large set, from unproven songs. Perhaps the list could be customizable so that people can arrange their songs how they like.

or

2. Keep stats of how many concerts a song has been played in, and the average star rating it got. That's not a 100% accurate way of judging a song since you'd be playing in bigger and smaller venues, but it would give you something to go off and a be a good way of ordering your songs.

[Bohemian Rap City]

The star system is not necessarily accurate in that I can play the same set list on three consecutive gigs but based on the size of the crowd the ratings change. A song might get 5 stars in a venue with 1500 people, then get 4 stars at 5000 people and 3 stars at 20,000 people. Only songs that are true 5 star hits will show over 3 stars at a 60,000 seat arena for me.

[AlterEgo45]

It is not entirely accurate but it is the only thing I can think of, unless you want to break the stats down into smaller groups or keep a record of how each song performed in each concert. However, those things would either be a pain in the ass to code, not fit with the interface, or both.

The only other method would be to reveal the hidden rating over time, and I wouldn't want to do that.

[Bohemian Rap City]

I try running the same set list thru venues with low 1000-3000 size and then compare the ratings with the same set in a 3500-6000 and again at over 7000 in order to see where they fall. Using a spread sheet program will let you compare songs by showing an average of their scores in a variety of venues.

Of course putting them on a spreadsheet requires a 2nd monitor and a lot of extra work.

[AlterEgo45]

That's actually a good idea. More accurate than what I'm doing.

Since this game is OK with Alt-tabbing I'll probably start maintaining a file, too.

[Bohemian Rap City]

After several days of running a spreadsheet on songs, I have found a few hard and fast rules that show that the audience is not a dynamic factor in song ratings. What I mean is, a song that is rated 4 stars at a 5000 seat venue will get the same rating at EVERY 5000 seat venue, regardless whether the venue is packed with fans of the band. The only factor that impacts rating is the number of PEOPLE in the venue. If the 5000 seat venue has 4500 people attending, it will rate the same as any other full venue with 4500 people.

Another thing to note is that if a song, and I know it SEEMS obvious, but I wanted the data to verify it, If a song rates 3 stars at a 5000 seat venue and also rates the same at a 60,000 seat venue, it will rate the same score at every venue in between.

I wish I could link the spreadsheet, as it really helps me build my CDs.

[Manouche]

Interesting ! Thanks for sharing this.

[Xavori]

I'm running a fantastic experiment on this atm. Should be done later tonight sometime tomorrow.

Preliminary stuff:
A bonus popularity song is a must have to reach 100 audience interest at any performance. You can reach 100 without it at small venues, but a 60,000 seat sold out crowd just won't click all the way unless you have that special popularity song. The good news is that apparently you only ever need one of those.

Band popularity > everything else when it comes to making money. Having those 100 audience interest gigs only matters in that it raises your band's popularity. Everything that makes you money is tied to that one stat, and the only way to raise it reliably is 70+ audience interest gigs, preferably the 100 ai gigs. This happens because it sells albums, lets you book bigger venues, and sells more t-shirts. It even sells more CD's in record deals although CD's are garbage for income.

Song quality does't really matter that much. A lottery winning song 70ish quality song can spike audience interest 40 points. A 100 quality, 100 popularity song that isn't a lottery winner is 5-10 points.

[AlterEgo45]

It's good to hear that about band popularity. I was never sure that t-shirt sales and the like weren't tied to business.

Do you think it is the manager that largely allows you to book bigger venues, or does he just get you a higher payday from them? It makes me wonder if you're not better off with a cheaper, lower reputation manager once you reach a certain level of fame.

I agree completely with song quality. I've written 8 songs in the 90's in my current game and all but one are duds. My hit songs since I reached mid-game have all happened to be in the 50's, except for one which is rated 49 and they'll still carry my set in any venue.

Songs rated 90+ are useful in that they help you hit record contract requirements. As for songs in the 70's or 80's, I believe it isn't worth expending good pieces to get a song rated at that level. If I have a song that uses a banked part and it is rated 75, but I can substitute a non-banked part and get a 66, I'll take the 66 and save the good piece to try and write a 90+ song later on. IMO once you get to mid game it is all about 90+ rated songs, hits, and a handful of "spear carrier" songs which get 4 stars at most concerts, collect a small amount of popularity, and hold a position for you.

By the way, at 60,000 seat venues I seem to need more than 1 hit song to get a 100. More like 3. I assume this is because my hit songs have low ratings.

I'm looking forward to seeing your experiment results!

[Bohemian Rap City]

I think the 60K venues are harder to boost because a hit song doesn't necessarily charge up the whole audience, just a part of it. 1 hit song will max you at any venue up to about 20-30k. The spear carriers in there all contribute. I think you can carry a 60k venue with 2 hits and some quality spear carriers, but I doubt the quality rating of the hit has a bearing.

I am also running tests on charting song lists based on all the various ideas that have been thrown around here.

[oflar]

"But one of my top songs is rated 23, and the best song I've ever written, a 71, fell flat."

I am in a similar situation- the song with highest popularity has quality of 25 and i am releasing songs with qualtity around 60 which are not popular yet but I keep trying;)

Until I have a better one the 25 quality song is always the first song in my concerts and also on my first CD with label contract.

[Xavori]

Originally posted by AlterEgo45:

It's good to hear that about band popularity. I was never sure that t-shirt sales and the like weren't tied to business.

Do you think it is the manager that largely allows you to book bigger venues, or does he just get you a higher payday from them? It makes me wonder if you're not better off with a cheaper, lower reputation manager once you reach a certain level of fame.

I agree completely with song quality. I've written 8 songs in the 90's in my current game and all but one are duds. My hit songs since I reached mid-game have all happened to be in the 50's, except for one which is rated 49 and they'll still carry my set in any venue.

Songs rated 90+ are useful in that they help you hit record contract requirements. As for songs in the 70's or 80's, I believe it isn't worth expending good pieces to get a song rated at that level. If I have a song that uses a banked part and it is rated 75, but I can substitute a non-banked part and get a 66, I'll take the 66 and save the good piece to try and write a 90+ song later on. IMO once you get to mid game it is all about 90+ rated songs, hits, and a handful of "spear carrier" songs which get 4 stars at most concerts, collect a small amount of popularity, and hold a position for you.

By the way, at 60,000 seat venues I seem to need more than 1 hit song to get a 100. More like 3. I assume this is because my hit songs have low ratings.

I'm looking forward to seeing your experiment results!

From my experiments with managers...

Running an expensive manager shortcuts your band's need to grow its popularity and reputation in exchange for taking more of your pay. That's it.

My current band regularly brings in over a million dollars per gig using the cheap Reputation 1, $100 minimum manager in the cities they are most popular. The gig pay alone in 60k headliner gigs is over a million dollars in those cities before considering all the other money.

As far as I can tell, song quality really is just about meeting record contract requirements. I'll be sorta testing that with my next record contract for this band as well as a much bigger experiment with the band I'm going to start sometime this week which will never sign a record deal.

[Xavori]

Originally posted by Bohemian Rap City:

I think the 60K venues are harder to boost because a hit song doesn't necessarily charge up the whole audience, just a part of it. 1 hit song will max you at any venue up to about 20-30k. The spear carriers in there all contribute. I think you can carry a 60k venue with 2 hits and some quality spear carriers, but I doubt the quality rating of the hit has a bearing.

I am also running tests on charting song lists based on all the various ideas that have been thrown around here.

You only need 1 popular song to hit 100 audience interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8biNi8JDw8&ab_channel=Xavori

[Bohemian Rap City]

I disagree strongly. If you do an intro gig at a 60k venue and you only have 1 hit song, they will struggle to get you 100 response unless you have 5 decent songs with it.

[Xavori]

Originally posted by Bohemian Rap City:

I disagree strongly. If you do an intro gig at a 60k venue and you only have 1 hit song, they will struggle to get you 100 response unless you have 5 decent songs with it.

That video I posted is 1 hit song carrying good songs to 100.

I have more info on this now that I'm running a garbage CD and garbage songs for my gigs, but I want to finish the 26 weeks at #1 with this release to be sure on what I'm seeing :D

[Manouche]

What do you call good songs and garbage songs ?
3 smiles at a full 60k venue is probably the max mark if not a hit so I'd call them very good songs.
Song quality > 25 is deemed a decent quality song by the game, > 50 is high quality, > 75 is very high quality.
I understand there is more than raw song quality but if you get 3 smiles in that context, it's really good.

Still, the point is made that at least one hit song is essential and can be enough to attain 100% interest with a 12 songs set list for now. And with 6 ? :)

Todd said there might still be changes in how this works with something involvings trends.