This game is good, but seems overrated...

[Stormlock]

Just for context, I've been playing rpgs since the NES era. Like, all of them. I play way too many games. It's my thing. I've sunk a little over 5 hours into this so far.

This game looks very pretty. And I can tell a lot of effort went into the details. But the overall design whiffs in so many areas.

1: The character customization is dull.
Most of your options here are either no brainers like increased primary stats, or useless garbage like 10% more damage versus one type of enemy or extra stats you can't use. There are no real decisions to be made here. Equipment is likewise boring. You've got 3 slots, and 2 of them are just going to be whatever is strictly superior to the other options. So really, you've only got accessories as a choice to make, and they don't offer much to think about either. Well, there's the class emblems too, but again, no brainers. You give the healer class to the character with the healer stats.

2: The combat is bad.
I've seen people praise this game for the ability to avoid combat. I've been doing that a lot because the combat here is awful. It fails on several levels. First, it's unrewarding. The skillpoints you gain barely matter, same for the loot. What am I going to spend the money on anyways, potions? Secondly, there's no tension. I don't have any resources to manage between battles so ending a battle at 5 hp on one character or in perfect condition makes no difference. So just spam AoE until it ends. Thirdly, for boss fights, it's too random. The whims of the overdrive gauge are way, way too impactful on the fights, and the enemy actions are neither balanced with eachother no scripted to be used in a balanced way. Having a fight start off with 3 massive party wide attacks basically wiping you out and then redoing it to instead see a weak status effect on one person and a pair of weak single target hits... ridiculous. Again, this takes all the tension away. I shouldn't even bother thinking about the fight too hard because it's so random. Finally, the overdrive gauge is way too important in the battles, basically eliminating 90% of your options so all you can really do is pick whatever matches it or whatever you desperately need in spite of it.

3: The exploration is unrewarding.
This mostly ties back to the first two points. Even if I uncover a sidequest or a cool hidden cave or whatever... the rewards are irrelevant. They barely change my combat potential and I didn't need the help to begin with because I can just reload the fight and feel twice as powerful due to luck. I found a class shrine tucked away and in any other game that'd feel awesome but here... meh. It'll maybe save me one or two turns in a boss fight? I found platinum ore way before I'm meant to while stuff is dropping tin! It does literally nothing because everything is gated. I may as well have found joke items.


I feel bad ripping on the game because it's clear a ton of effort went into it and it was made by people who really love the genre. But it's also clear they didn't consider how all their creative mechanics work together, because they clash more than synergize. The game is less than the sum of it's parts.

[Stormlock]

^
CT's endgame had a fair bit more than that. It had several entire dungeons, and some of the best scenes in the entire game, like Robo replanting the forest and Lucca saving her mom. And it was all optional, which made it feel better. Consequences of choices always feel more impactful than consequences of being on the tracks you can't leave.

extrakun eredeti hozzászólása:

You are comparing end game stuff from Chrono Trigger (the rainbow shell weapons and items, I think) with the beginning of the game in Chained Echoes, which is rather unfair, but I might be wrong here - I think I haven't even done 1/4 of the game. Granted, the crystal system is one of the weaker aspects of the game, according to some reviewers (Mortismal Gaming, for instance).

Fair, I was exagerrating the loot drops from CT. But even much much earlier in the game, you get really cool stuff. The 50% counter attack accessory shows up in the sewers, which is like... the second dungeon in the game. Third if you're counting the prison break? That's very early. I'm pretty sure the silver earring shows up early too, and that's what, 50% TP cost reduction? FF6 has a bunch of great examples too. You get stuff like the Genji gloves very early on, which let you dual wield weapons. The weakest accessories in that game still do things like 25% more magic damage.

The exploration stuff fills up the job board and unlocks new rewards. Red chests give you pieces of armor and weapons of the next tier that are not available in shops. I am honestly confused here - that's a beloved standard JRPG trope. I managed to grab a number of stuff that cannot be found via shops or loot drops.

I've never found the incremental upgrade thing that beloved. Yeah, it's everywhere, but the best games do better. Lufia 2 makes my list because equipment there had special limit break type attacks connected to it. Finding a hidden chest in there after solving a puzzle is often not just 10% more damage, but changing one of your attacks from something like 1x damage to all enemies to an ice elemental 3x damage to a single target. And it's a unique weapon you can't find in a shop at all. That hidden chest or puzzle reward is the only place to find it in the entire game. I remarked in the boss log that the pilfer reward made me happy. That happiness was met with equal disappointment when immediately after the boss I ran into a merchant that sold that armor. I've got more than enough gold equip everyone, so that was disappointing to see.

With save points and tents what sort of consequences are there? In the past, dealing with dungeons with no save points in the middle means grinding money to get potions, tents, consumables and then head out. Pretty sure I usually go out with lots of s backup so I will never lose. Some games even put a merchant before a boss fight, for crying out loud.

This is a playstyle thing for sure. Pushing your luck when exploring instead of grinding feels good to me. There's an art to getting very nearly almost killed but finding the good loot in a dungeon before escaping back to town, and it feels very satisfying to pull off in games that let you do that. This game, or games with no difficulty to speak of or no progress loss on death, don't give you that. Again, those are common, but they don't make my list of top tier games. Pretty much every one I listed makes you lose everything if you die, no respawning in town with the gear and half your gold, and they don't put save points right before a boss generally, or even in dungeons at all quite often.

Also, I am confused. Most JRPGs doesn't care how long you take to clear a fight. The only things those random encounters are there to suck your resources,

Again, most don't but some do. There are games where the resource attrition is trivial, but you're instead trying to win fights without even getting hit to maintain some kind of combo chain, or the Tales series and some others that give you a grade on each combat that factors in things like speed, damage taken, weaknesses exploited, and give you rewards for higher grades. It's a reward for playing well instead of grinding and fighting without thinking.

From what I see, most of the reviews that lauded the game are for the facts that it takes away all the grinding, busywork and tedium of the genre. I don't think Chained Echoes is better than those games, and I seriously doubt any reviewers would say that. What I love Chained Echoes for are basically - it's a homage and it's slaughtering the sacred cows at the same time. It's what the stale JRPG-style industry needs, instead of repeating all the experiences of the past. Truth is, as much as I enjoyed Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Shadow Hearts, I don't have the time, nor interest, to play through something like those again. I bounce off the Trails series now precisely because of time issue and "it's just more of the same."

I hope you'll find a way to enjoy this game. Hopefully Sea of Stars ranked higher in your opinion!

I can't speak for Shadow Hearts, didn't play it back in the day and bounced off when I tried it out a couple years ago. Chrono Cross I felt was a bad game. 4/10 at best. And not because I wanted more CT. Even if it were it's own franchise I'd have felt the same way.

Haven't played Sea of Stars yet, I'm hoping it's a great game. I think Chained Echoes is decent, a solid 7 or 8 out of ten. But I got sucked in by a lot of reviews saying it was 10/10 and has no flaws. I was expecting another experience like Cross Code or Crystal Project and feel let down. I'll probably play it further and maybe even finish it if it gets a lot better later on, but I've gone through another story arc and still feel fairly lukewarm about it. There are parts I really do enjoy, the writing is great and the references to old favourites give me warm fuzzies. I just wish they had picked some better gameplay mechanics to copy, because all the problems they solved with their systems have been solved before in better ways, if you know where to look.

[Rampage]

Axelhander eredeti hozzászólása:

Rampage eredeti hozzászólása:

You're joking right? Several huge storyfilled side quests with character development open up, multiple different endings can be achieved. All the best gear to be obtained and more.

We must have a different idea of what constitutes "huge" and "story-filled." There's maybe a couple hours worth of content after you revive Crono, less if you don't suck at the game, and there isn't exactly much in the way of story revealed; the vague "entity" is hinted at, Masamune gets an upgrade, a bunch of pointless side characters get some pointless story (Toma, Ozzy, Porre's mayor, Marle's dad), and if you run the Black Omen multiple times by doing it in reverse chronological order you get multiple pieces of Prism Gear. Whoopdee doo.

so you are just trolling got it, guess we're done here then

[Storm Reaver]

Chrono Trigger's end-game content isn't huge.

[Fate]

Stormlock eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm honestly baffled you guys feel like the items in this game are rewarding. With the exception of a few weapons in the buried treasure that gave major benefits, and the attack up crystals, pretty much everything else has been so useless I didn't even bother fusing it. SOS Stat up? A TEN percent boost to a stat while my character is on the brink of death? Why would I be excited for that? 5% chance to inflict paralyze? Even in that boss fight nobody hit the boss 20 times and even if they had it seems to have like a 1/3 chance of doing anything? 15% resistance to an element? That won't even make someone die in 4 hits instead of 3. It has literally no effect in practice. These are terrible rewards for taking double the time to explore a map thoroughly. Compare to Chrono Trigger, where you get things like 70% counter attack rate or permanent double speed or complete immunity to an element off a single piece of equipment. And picking which things to use on which characters gives you way more customization than picking between +10 hp or +1 agi.

And the random encounters here are the exact opposite of meaningful. There is literally no consequence for losing, and no benefit at all for winning quickly, or efficiently. Whether I mash my way through brainlessly or play carefully I get the exact same results. Presenting this as a revolutionary system that fixes the problems of older games is ridiculous.

The game has lots going for it, I just don't think it deserves all these 10/10 best game ever reviews it has been getting. I'm sad games like Monster Sanctuary and Crystal Project didn't get this kind of publicity, because they deserve it far more. Yeah, this is better than Octopath. That is a very low bar. It's nowhere close to as good as Chrono Trigger, Lufia 2, FF5, Valkyrie Profile, BoF 3, Tales of Destiny, Star Ocean 2, SaGa Frontier.... Those games are the bar to meet and this falls well short.

You make great points. Rewards should feel...rewarding, and I question if they often enough felt rewarding in this game or not.

[dazzur]

I agree with OP. Just finished, Over hyped by neck beard redditors who brigade any one who disagrees.

[my butt is erect]

The game was a great try at copying the classics. I have plenty of complaints. But I'm not sure I've seen a single modern rpg compare well to these classics, at least if you're talking about games with mostly similar design philosophy.

[Veg]

I really loved the game :) I'm sorry the author couldn't engage and just looked for bad things to pick.

But with all good games there are some people who just complain to complain.

I hope the dev won't take this serious and sees the huge positive reviews this game got.

[Blaizeus]

Really obnoxious whenever you can tell who the undying fanboys in the thread are. There's one thing to disagree with him but acknowledge his points, another to go "hehe you're bad at the game and just dont get it!!! its perfect!!! and live in a fantasy where this game is perfect.

I ended up dropping the game around the time FE Engage came out and absolutely couldn't get back into it; which sucks because I really enjoyed my time with it. I played it up to act 2 and my stopping point was when you do the.. castle raid? It was sky armor battle spam. Which, unmentioned in this thread so far, is obnoxious. If you thought the base party fights were one note, sky armor fights are even worse. Spam the same few moves, go a tier up or down accordingly, and spam heals to not get nuked. Not much skill to sky armor fights but being repetitive slogs. They were cool for about the 1st hour or 2 I had them.

The forge system is undercooked imo aswell, and the point that gear is solely about picking up the next item in a list with higher stats.

It sucks the gameplay dragged so much for me because what kept me hooked was the story, art, and music. But the repetitive no-consequence for death mob battles with near no reason to fight them didn't help.

[Zeth]

I dunno guys. Its a pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ amazing RPG for a one man effort. I enjoy every minutes I play. It doesn't feel like an half ass effort, its a completed and fleshed out 40 ish hours RPG made from passion and it feels.

This game deserved to be enjoyed for what it is. its a gem

[matsieftw]

Other people enjoying something more than you did does not make it overrated. It just means you didn't enjoy it the same way most other people did and that's fine.

This constant need to say popular or praised media you don't personally connect with is "overrated" is myopic af.

[Quidjibo2021]

@Stormlock play further.

[Wirewing]

matsieftw eredeti hozzászólása:

Other people enjoying something more than you did does not make it overrated. It just means you didn't enjoy it the same way most other people did and that's fine.

This constant need to say popular or praised media you don't personally connect with is "overrated" is myopic af.

You don't understand what overrated or myopic means. Calling this guy the representation of a something you perceive as 'constant trend' is myopic.

Calling something that other people enjoy overrated is literally what the word overrated is for. Every store page is rated by user. It is the actual and functional interface where over or under or correctly rated things would appear. This also shows that you don't know what myopic means, because you are so focused on negging OP that you forgot what site you were on.

Please check your local environment - you may be too close to your computer or another contaminant for too long and it may be melting your brains.

[dmsephiroth]

Stormlock eredeti hozzászólása:

Just for context, I've been playing rpgs since the NES era. Like, all of them. I play way too many games. It's my thing. I've sunk a little over 5 hours into this so far.

This game looks very pretty. And I can tell a lot of effort went into the details. But the overall design whiffs in so many areas.

1: The character customization is dull.
Most of your options here are either no brainers like increased primary stats, or useless garbage like 10% more damage versus one type of enemy or extra stats you can't use. There are no real decisions to be made here. Equipment is likewise boring. You've got 3 slots, and 2 of them are just going to be whatever is strictly superior to the other options. So really, you've only got accessories as a choice to make, and they don't offer much to think about either. Well, there's the class emblems too, but again, no brainers. You give the healer class to the character with the healer stats.

2: The combat is bad.
I've seen people praise this game for the ability to avoid combat. I've been doing that a lot because the combat here is awful. It fails on several levels. First, it's unrewarding. The skillpoints you gain barely matter, same for the loot. What am I going to spend the money on anyways, potions? Secondly, there's no tension. I don't have any resources to manage between battles so ending a battle at 5 hp on one character or in perfect condition makes no difference. So just spam AoE until it ends. Thirdly, for boss fights, it's too random. The whims of the overdrive gauge are way, way too impactful on the fights, and the enemy actions are neither balanced with eachother no scripted to be used in a balanced way. Having a fight start off with 3 massive party wide attacks basically wiping you out and then redoing it to instead see a weak status effect on one person and a pair of weak single target hits... ridiculous. Again, this takes all the tension away. I shouldn't even bother thinking about the fight too hard because it's so random. Finally, the overdrive gauge is way too important in the battles, basically eliminating 90% of your options so all you can really do is pick whatever matches it or whatever you desperately need in spite of it.

3: The exploration is unrewarding.
This mostly ties back to the first two points. Even if I uncover a sidequest or a cool hidden cave or whatever... the rewards are irrelevant. They barely change my combat potential and I didn't need the help to begin with because I can just reload the fight and feel twice as powerful due to luck. I found a class shrine tucked away and in any other game that'd feel awesome but here... meh. It'll maybe save me one or two turns in a boss fight? I found platinum ore way before I'm meant to while stuff is dropping tin! It does literally nothing because everything is gated. I may as well have found joke items.


I feel bad ripping on the game because it's clear a ton of effort went into it and it was made by people who really love the genre. But it's also clear they didn't consider how all their creative mechanics work together, because they clash more than synergize. The game is less than the sum of it's parts.

Cannot agree more.

I also don t like the combat here at all. It takes too long, no turbo-mode...even vs weaker enemies it took ages and all bec. of that boring overdrive mechanic ;/

Also i think the exploring feels very unrewarding and most chests are very boring.

dazzur eredeti hozzászólása:

I agree with OP. Just finished, Over hyped by neck beard redditors who brigade any one who disagrees.

I have the same feeling. Most people just over-hype it and flame other persons who don t praise it very much. Sadly thats +in+ these days...^^

I will finish it, but its not catching me at all, like other well done JRPG's for example DQ 11 or Ara Fell (even shorter, but there i felt a quick and fine immersion while here it just feels lifelees and not rly catching)

[Storm Reaver]

There's a turbo-mode. Press Left Trigger in battle. You will see arrows on top left indicating battle speed and can be used to help speed up the battles. It's not really described anywhere, but you can find it by pressing buttons during combat.

The game was decent, not miraculous... It's for people who want a classic rpg experience, compared to the modern rpg tropes. The game has only been out since December, I can't understand how people think it's over-hyped.

[dmsephiroth]

Oh ya and i want to add something:

Combat does not feel rewarding at all.

You don't get any EXP at all. Just some craft-materials and those little-skillpoints, from which you need a TON to do something.

Only bosses give you new spells, passives and bonus stuff.

That is just not enough for my JRPG-Taste of a good combat system.
Fighting small enemies does not give ya rly something...you could skip a LOT of those unrewarding fights..and that should never be the case in an RPG.