Game balance & KOTH opinions

[Aux]

Hello, I have a lot of hours played into this game and I wanted to give my opinion on some things. It may be long, but I believe I have a good understanding of the game. There is a lot to say, so let's get into it.

Normal mode originally took me 8 hours to beat. After that I played over 100 more just for KOTH. Most people are not like me. Most people will play normal mode once and then move on. For this reason it is important to preserve this mode. I will come back to this point, but keep it in mind as you read the rest.

I want to start with unit balance. Everyone on ladder knows shooters are too overpowered, but what about new players? My first time completing the game I thought shooter was unplayable. I won with tricksters. Yet on ladder it is very much the opposite. Trickster is unplayable and shooter is by far the most overpowered. What happened here?

It is simple. The campaign is pressuring you to build one way, but facing player teams is a very different type of pressure. Example 1: silence in the campaign is useless. Example 2: Player teams will never have a 40,000 HP unit. Example 3: -60% to attack hurts units like shooter far more than fighter, but is no longer an issue once you get to KOTH.

My opinion is that this design is a problem for PVP. It means the best players will figure out how to transition into or survive using "bad" teams. In my opinion this is why shooter being overpowered was not discovered sooner. In one of my runs I spent 2 minutes killing the Death Knight with a solo shooter team because they only do 1 damage per shot while playing in red. It's a boring way to play, but we do what we must in grandmaster, eh?

Returning to the discussion of normal mode, I think separating KOTH into its own mode is the best path forward. It preserves the normal mode experience, opens up plenty of options for development into normal mode (if you choose to), and also will mitigate the repetitive grind of KOTH which has evolved into learning how to play the game efficiently enough to use "bad" teams. I would like to see modes like hunger games & mutagen mode slashed, since they seem like development bloat to me, and instead I would like to see normal mode (unlocks crazy & hard), hard mode (unlocks KOTH mode).

In my vision, a KOTH mode will instead put you against teams that are more representative of player PVP teams, and the mode can be shorter too hopefully, and less event driven (0.96% chance for Prophet event to autowin the game ). I feel that I have spent an unnecessary amount of time replaying the campaign in order to try things out in KOTH. It was fun while the game is new, but who would do this moving forward? No one. Also, I would be more encouraged to return for future seasons instead of put down the game if PVP runs are faster. I think many others would agree with this, and my concern is that the ladder will be empty shortly if people are not encouraged to return.

There is more to say but I will end here. Thanks for reading.

[ILLUMINATI_WIZARD69]

i wouldn't mind a faster mode just for KOTH, but I think making a gimp team in the campaign so u can dominate in KOTH is part of the decision making process. I like the idea of different modes to suit different comps, I think that part just needs more time.

(0.96% chance for Prophet event to autowin the game :lh_lich: )
what is that in reference to? he always steals food from me or I kill him

[Aux]

Originally posted by ILLUMINATI_WIZARD69:

i wouldn't mind a faster mode just for KOTH, but I think making a gimp team in the campaign so u can dominate in KOTH is part of the decision making process. I like the idea of different modes to suit different comps, I think that part just needs more time.

(0.96% chance for Prophet event to autowin the game )
what is that in reference to? he always steals food from me or I kill him

47 events, 10 chosen per run, 20 options, it resolves to 0.96% per run for the +40% shooters. Alternatively restart first floor 940 times. I don't have the constitution to grind for it personally.

[ILLUMINATI_WIZARD69]

Originally posted by Aux:

47 events, 10 chosen per run, 20 options, it resolves to 0.96% per run for the +40% shooters. Alternatively restart first floor 940 times. I don't have the constitution to grind for it personally.

+40% for just one event? I think most i ever got was 20%!

[Aux]

Originally posted by ILLUMINATI_WIZARD69:

Originally posted by Aux:

47 events, 10 chosen per run, 20 options, it resolves to 0.96% per run for the +40% shooters. Alternatively restart first floor 940 times. I don't have the constitution to grind for it personally.

+40% for just one event? I think most i ever got was 20%!

PROPHET
1 - Kill the nutso and loot his body.
(-1/2 Humans +20/40% dmg for some class)
2 - Collectively kneel before the power of Mighty dSpot.
(+20% dmg for healers)
(-10 food)
3 - Leave the prophet to his prayers and go.
1 - Sell the prophet some food.
(-15 food +20 tokens)
2 - Sorry aint got enough food for ourselves. Shoo.
(Nothing happens)

[ShinShilo]

Hi! Good feedback. A couple of small notes:

Originally posted by Aux:

I would like to see modes like hunger games & mutagen mode slashed, since they seem like development bloat to me

These modes are tiny in development. A couple of lines of changes in the configs.

Originally posted by Aux:

It means the best players will figure out how to transition into or survive using "bad" teams.

Sorry, I don't consider this a problem at all. PVP forcing you to do sub-optimal things for PVE is, I think, a good part of the Despot's Game. The shooters are cool, but are they difficult to win the game with? I don't know what the problem is, in my opinion it's not bad.

Generally:

The fact that experienced players do not like to "reroll" the start and go through long runs 100 times - I completely agree. And we will definitely work with it.
But! At the end of the first playthrough of the game, there will always be a "king of the hill". This is the whole point of the idea, that at the end of the singlplayer game there is an unusual pvp part. Not two separate modes, but two type of games in one. Yes, now you are not so interested, but did you not play these 100 times precisely because you have not seen anything like this before?

Therefore, there will be no complete separation of PVE from PVP. But there are other ways. For example, to make all runs after the first win, twice as short, but at the same time, so that the team is even stronger as a result. Then, during the first playthrough, everything will be as it is now, and the "PVP mode" will lose some of the problems.
Sure, this option is more difficult to balance and maintain.
But it may never be needed

We are currently developing a big new game mode. We will most likely show it in a couple of months. I won't spoil it, but it's mostly about PVP. May be all experienced players will only play it. Or maybe it will not be popular and will remain as entertainment for an hour for a variety. In any case, we will not change what you are talking about until the publication of this mode.
Thank you for your feedback, peace!

[roslolian]

wait what? Hunger games and mutagen modes slashed? Nah bro you want as many modes as possible. I dunno what you are saying telling devs to remove the value already existing in the game has just because it is "bloat" in your eyes wtf dude. I never play hunger games but I want it in there cuz I know a certain subset of people like that mode. The more variety this game has the better, just cuz you don't like it doesn't mean the devs have to take it out just to cater to your whims and fancy.

Personally i don't care about KOTH. I wish there's an option to skip the ranking battles and immediately start a new game. With that said, I can imagine making the PVP comps and campaign comps different is part of the decision making process and challenge of KOTH. Winning with "bad teams" is part of the challenge, having a stronger team for PVP is the payoff for the challenge you go thru in the campaign. If what is strong in the campaign is exactly what is strong in KOTH then there's not gonna be lots of fun and excitement in KOTH because for example if shooters were OP in both campaign and in PVP then everybody will run shooters.

[Dr Wo0oho0O0o]

Mutagen is great a lot of people enjoy it....

[Aux]

Originally posted by ShinShilo:

We are currently developing a big new game mode. We will most likely show it in a couple of months. I won't spoil it, but it's mostly about PVP. May be all experienced players will only play it. Or maybe it will not be popular and will remain as entertainment for an hour for a variety. In any case, we will not change what you are talking about until the publication of this mode.
Thank you for your feedback, peace!

Thank you for reading. Also, this sounds fun I look forward to playing it.