Mages are weak?

[dkaan]

I know that if it's built right, every class can complete game easily, since it's not really hard game, even on nightmare. But...

A warrior is strong even on level 2. Just take warcry and charging bull, and you are fine with any enemy game throws at you. A bow rogue completely safe after taking leaping shot and shot from the shadows upgade, on level 3 or 2(if you respec). Just disappear into stealth, reposition and BAM! Long shot with %900 damage. But as a mage, i can't really feel powerfull enough. I know mage's role in this game crowd control and support, but i want to be powerfull as a mage, as it's in lore. Knight enchanter is strong but nowhere strong as artificer, assassin or champion. Some guy with a bow shouldn't hit harder than who controls the elemants and draw power from fade.

Anyway, what do you think about this?

[barzai]

I think you put your finger on the crux of the issue with your comparative analysis. Warriors start out very strong both offensively and defensively, but never really get a ton better. Rogues start out fragile but make up for it with stealth. But again, they never get that much better.

Mages start off really weak--and DAI mages are nothing like the original DnD mages, who started off with 1d4 HP and robes that did not improve their armor class. They had no staff, and they started with one--ONE!--first-level spell, which inexorably had to be defensive. Basically their role was to cower in the shadows of their stronger shipmates until they managed to survive to level 3, at which point they got a second-level spell (they'd gotten a second first-level spell at level 2, which usually meant Magic Missile, making them at least marginally useful in a firefight).

In DAI, you start with a staff, and two renewing spells, one of which--Flashfire--is best used defensively. The damage is nice, but Flashfire's real utility is the fear-inducing side effect--the more so that the boss at the end of the Prologue is vulnerable to it. And you start with at least some armor, even though it's weak. So, yeah, low-level mages are very weak, and even at mid-levels they are still "glass cannons," "eggshells armed with hammers."

Mages don't really come into their own until about level 5-7 IMHO, but at that point, a well-constructed mage build is pretty awesome, provided it's teamed with a proper set of complementary builds.

Much of the mage's weakness is overcome if you build a rogue (e.g. Varric) with Toxic Cloud with the Lost in the Mist upgrade. Similarly, you'll want to build a warrior (e.g. Cass) with Horn of Valor with the Fortifying Blast upgrade. You can achieve both at level 5-6 with a respec. I like to give Varric the Leeching Poison upgrade to Poisoned Weapons and Cass the Give Them The Boot upgrade to Grappling Chain. Or if you prefer, Charging Bull which is hugely powerful early on.

BTW the problem with Charging Bull is that under the best of circumstances, the teammates have a tendency to move on top of the fire and other glyphs enemy mages throw down, which either wounds them badly or kills them. With Charging Bull it's even worse. So I tend not to give Cass that until a bit later.

My preferred mage build involves the Storm skill tree. You start off with Chain Lightning, and you work your way down to Static Cage with the Lightning Cage upgrade. That gives you a crowd control ability with what effectively amounts to a Lightning rune to every weapon and spell your party casts. That ain't nothing.

For the support side, I generally rely on good ol' Solas for that. Just adjust his tactics screen to cast Barrier as often as possible by setting it to Preferred. I also usually upgrade his Winter's Grasp with Winter Chill--decent crowd control--and also add in Mana Surge, which freezes your attackers if they break through your barrier or it expires while they're nearby. Then--as a mage--I take Winter's Grasp with Winter's Ruin and wait for Solas to cast his own version at which point I cast mine and rain heavy damage down on my target.

BTW FWIW rangestrikes have always been OP in DnD-style games in my experience. And in DAI it's a different defensive skill for melee versus range attacks, so that makes it even worse. At least in classic DnD armor class was armor class, full stop.

Finally, as far as specializations go, although I am aware that Knight-Enchanter is viewed as the best, I actually prefer Necromancer. It's a lot more nuanced, but those fear spells sure allow you to control the battle in a way impossible otherwise (except using the Warrior's War Horn skill).

Think of the KE as the mage equivalent of the Vanguard in Mass Effect, while the Necromancer is more like the Engineer. Flashy versus workmanlike. Showhorse versus workhorse.

Hope this helps!

[dkaan]

"Warriors start out very strong both offensively and defensively, but never really get a ton better. "

What? Really? You can solo both the game and dlcs with a champion. Put some crit chance to your gear and take the passive 2h skill that reduces cooldown 1 for each critical, you can keep spamming walking fortress. No one can touch you, not ever a damn thing. So it can get ton better.

"Rogues start out fragile but make up for it with stealth. But again, they never get that much better."

God, i don't even know what to say to this. You can go either artificer, assassin or tempest, you will be godlike. You can't really go wrong, really

Good luck soloing as a necromancer. Let's see how long your barrier can endure the DLC enemies

[barzai]

Originally posted by dkaan:

"Warriors start out very strong both offensively and defensively, but never really get a ton better. "

What? Really? You can solo both the game and dlcs with a champion. Put some crit chance to your gear and take the passive 2h skill that reduces cooldown 1 for each critical, you can keep spamming walking fortress. No one can touch you, not ever a damn thing. So it can get ton better.

"Rogues start out fragile but make up for it with stealth. But again, they never get that much better."

God, i don't even know what to say to this. You can go either artificer, assassin or tempest, you will be godlike. You can't really go wrong, really

Good luck soloing as a necromancer. Let's see how long your barrier can endure the DLC enemies

You're talking about endgame builds. I'm talking about surviving the early and middle stages of the game, based on your references to what you get at levels 2 and 3. Apples and oranges, my friend.

Also, I don't recall every even uttering the word solo nor did you. I would never solo the game, and in fact I made the specific point that mages can be strongly reinforced by suitable companion builds. Again, seems like we're talking past each other.

You asked the question, "What do you think about this?" Now you know what I think about it. If it wasn't helpful, I'm sorry to hear it. But honestly there's no reason to get snippy about it.

Anyhow, if what you're after is high-level solo builds, I'm not your guy. But there's plenty of stuff on that, not least of which a number of YouTube videos by a guy with a three-name handle that is something Kis Herceg, I don't remember exactly. Shouldn't be too hard to find though.

[dkaan]

''You're talking about endgame builds. I'm talking about surviving the early and middle stages of the game, based on your references to what you get at levels 2 and 3. Apples and oranges, my friend.''

You totally missed my point. That was not a reference about early game builds. I said that warriors and rogues powerful from the start. They start and keep being powerful. And to be able to solo the game, without needing anyone beside you is what POWERFUL is. Since mage can't do that, or hardly can, that means mages are weak

And i'm not looking for high level solo builds. I already know what to do. Thanks

[barzai]

Originally posted by dkaan:

''You're talking about endgame builds. I'm talking about surviving the early and middle stages of the game, based on your references to what you get at levels 2 and 3. Apples and oranges, my friend.''

You totally missed my point. That was not a reference about early game builds. I said that warriors and rogues powerful from the start. They start and keep being powerful. And to be able to solo the game, without needing anyone beside you is what POWERFUL is. Since mage can't do that, or hardly can, that means mages are weak

And i'm not looking for high level solo builds. I already know what to do. Thanks

Fair enough. FWIW I'm pretty sure the guy I mentioned did a video soloing with a high-level mage who was a Necromancer/Fire build, which many people think is a pretty nice combination. He showcases his builds using (1) the boss fight in the temple at the culmination of the Frostback Basin series of quests, and (2) the long hard slog with no save points through the Darkspawn nest in the Deep Roads.

I guess he regards those as pretty tough, and they certainly are in my own experience, particularly the boss fight in the Ice Temple or whatever it's called: I can barely get through that with a full party, can't imagine trying to solo it even if I wanted to.

He's done a lot of dragon fight videos as well, but those are kinda showy, he demonstrates how to take down dragons in about 30 seconds. Crikey!

So if you are still thinking about it, it might be worth your while to check out what he's doing with solo mages. Of course it's not just about the build, there's a lot of gear that enters into the equation as well, but he lays all that out in great detail. Recommended.

[Eternie]

I think mages are the best as that play style suits me. With mages having so many AoE spells to effect the whole battle field. But it's what you get use to.

[dkaan]

They do have many aoe spells but they do little damage. They are fragile, and they damage less compared to both warrior and rogue. I do miss the mages in dragon age origins

[Karlmeister]

Originally posted by dkaan:

They do have many aoe spells but they do little damage. They are fragile, and they damage less compared to both warrior and rogue. I do miss the mages in dragon age origins

Depends how you build them and how you use their abilities. A properly build mage can do a lot moar damage than a Tank Warrior or a Archer Rogue. And certainly less fragile than a rogue.

[dkaan]

They can outdamage an archer rogue? LoL

I'm really tired of inexperienced guys who thinks their normal difficulty playing experiences gave them the best opinions about builds

[barzai]

Originally posted by dkaan:

TI'm really tired of inexperienced guys who thinks their normal difficulty playing experiences gave them the best opinions about builds

You know, if all you're here to do is parade your allegedly superior knowledge, why should any of the rest of us waste our time and energy trying to help?

I don't know to whom this comment is addressed, but I have over 4000 hours in the game, the overwhelming majority of it at Nightmare with most of the Trials active. Furthermore I've vectored you onto a guy who unquestionably has the answers to your "questions," and I've yet to see any evidence you even care.

My own experience is that at Nightmare with Trials active, I can generally take on any enemy that's no more than three levels higher than I am. Any enemy that's at my own level is meat. Necessarily, this means that once you max out, you're gonna be vaporizing your adversaries with a hard look.

The simple fact is, at the highest levels (25+) pretty much any class, subclass and build is gonna be way OP, even at Nightmare with Trials active. Sure, there's a few bosses that present a challenge--Gurd Haroffsen at the Ice Temple in the Frostback Basin; the Guardian at the Wellspring in the Deep Roads; and the Qunari warrior-mage in the final stages of Trespasser. Or even the four Despair Demons out on The Lady's Rest. But other than those, well, not so much.

Now I know what you're thinking, it's harder to do those battles if you're soloing. Well, OK. But you may as well argue that it's harder to defeat adversaries who outlevel you by more than the three levels previously cited--or for that matter, that it's harder to defeat adversaries at Nightmare than at Normal or Hard. So what? All that proves is, you can artificially make the game harder for yourself. Congratulations: you've now demonstrated beyond all doubt that you can hit the ground with your hat.

That is all.

[Karlmeister]

Originally posted by dkaan:

They can outdamage an archer rogue? LoL

I'm really tired of inexperienced guys who thinks their normal difficulty playing experiences gave them the best opinions about builds

Bruh, rly do you think you're the only one who finished the game in Nightmare+trials? LOL

[dkaan]

Originally posted by barzai:

Originally posted by dkaan:

TI'm really tired of inexperienced guys who thinks their normal difficulty playing experiences gave them the best opinions about builds

You know, if all you're here to do is parade your allegedly superior knowledge, why should any of the rest of us waste our time and energy trying to help?

I don't know to whom this comment is addressed, but I have over 4000 hours in the game, the overwhelming majority of it at Nightmare with most of the Trials active. Furthermore I've vectored you onto a guy who unquestionably has the answers to your "questions," and I've yet to see any evidence you even care.

My own experience is that at Nightmare with Trials active, I can generally take on any enemy that's no more than three levels higher than I am. Any enemy that's at my own level is meat. Necessarily, this means that once you max out, you're gonna be vaporizing your adversaries with a hard look.

The simple fact is, at the highest levels (25+) pretty much any class, subclass and build is gonna be way OP, even at Nightmare with Trials active. Sure, there's a few bosses that present a challenge--Gurd Haroffsen at the Ice Temple in the Frostback Basin; the Guardian at the Wellspring in the Deep Roads; and the Qunari warrior-mage in the final stages of Trespasser. Or even the four Despair Demons out on The Lady's Rest. But other than those, well, not so much.

Now I know what you're thinking, it's harder to do those battles if you're soloing. Well, OK. But you may as well argue that it's harder to defeat adversaries who outlevel you by more than the three levels previously cited--or for that matter, that it's harder to defeat adversaries at Nightmare than at Normal or Hard. So what? All that proves is, you can artificially make the game harder for yourself. Congratulations: you've now demonstrated beyond all doubt that you can hit the ground with your hat.

That is all.

Fırat of all, that comment was not adressed to you. And second, which i thought it was clear as a day, i did not open this topic because i needed "help" with mage builds. I just wanted to see thoughts of people, about mages in inquisition. Cause, as i have told before, mages must be much stronger and dangerous to the other classes lore-wise. But in this game, they are just not

I said that i missed mages in origins. In that game, i could feel really as strong as i must be. In this, i just don't

[dkaan]

Originally posted by Karlmeister:

Originally posted by dkaan:

They can outdamage an archer rogue? LoL

I'm really tired of inexperienced guys who thinks their normal difficulty playing experiences gave them the best opinions about builds

Bruh, rly do you think you're the only one who finished the game in Nightmare+trials? LOL

Nope, i don't. Many people did, but not you clearly. Or else you would know that mages can't do damage half of the archer easily can

[Karlmeister]

Originally posted by dkaan:

Originally posted by Karlmeister:

Bruh, rly do you think you're the only one who finished the game in Nightmare+trials? LOL

Nope, i don't. Many people did, but not you clearly. Or else you would know that mages can't do damage half of the archer easily can

I'm amazed that you can deduce it just from one post

[Karax]

Originally posted by dkaan:

Knight enchanter is strong but nowhere strong as artificer, assassin or champion. Some guy with a bow shouldn't hit harder than who controls the elemants and draw power from fade.

Bruh, on the knight enchanter, once you hit level 19, on nightmare diff? you won't die, period I can solo dragons and any threat, that's how busted Knight Enchanter is, I can share you my build and equipment, but in a nutshell, it goes something like this:

Shields go BRRRRR (they almost never go down)
Spirit damage goes BRRRRRRRRR (fade and blade)

It's almost ridiculous how imba it feels.