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But your thought process is so perverted it raises questions about you as a person. These are mostly questions I wouldn't bother airing because, ever since the early 2000s, trying to get someone to change their views via a discussion on the Internet has been akin to casting pearls before swine.
@Kenji, the «>» quote formatting really screams «Redditor».
Why? Would that change anything? I don't want to tell you cos you seem to be looking for anything to use in your crazy 'arguments' against me.
Yeah I guess I can see why you maybe interpreted what I said that way, but that's just cos you're thinking way too much about it and are wrong. :)
Then what exactly is wrong with Todd? You just see him as being fat and ugly and you're like "waaaahh wahhh discrimination, demonization, wahhhh". You just seem super defensive over it. So what if I think fat middle aged men are gross? I thought your problem is with the game's portrayal? You went off in some super massive rant about nothing! xD
Todd's a good character because he is complex AS WELL AS REEDEMABLE and sympathetic! Some people may even feel guilty about disliking him initially (not me, he's gross) after learning his backstory and seeing him help Kara in the end! Him being an ugly gross man is obviously deliberate, that's why I said I don't think it's a coincidence! He's a good villain because of that.
It's like don't judge a book by it's cover or whatever, but that's exactly what you're doing to Todd! You're just thinking "omg omg it's so unfair how the villains are FAT and MIDDLE AGED omg!!", but they are complex characters.
Let's get down to brass tacks. Would you be alright with a corporate executive who is an aggressive, bitter, short-haired lesbian who harasses other female employees because of her inadequacies? A black guy who grew up with no father to be a violent street thug? A greedy and very overtly Jewish banker? An Asian who's socially challenged but good with maths?
Yes, white men are not a minority no matter how fat or ugly they are. :)
Like, in a game? It would depend on how they are used I think. In this game's case I don't think Todd is used to discriminate against ugly fat middle aged men (or the other guy who is sooo minor a character I've actually forgotten about him completely).
The only reason I said that is because I knew you'd react to it.
Are you saying men ARE a minority? Do you honestly think the developers are purposely discriminating against specifically fat ugly middle aged men?
Kenji's replies are just so crazy and outrageous, I can't take him seriously.
You're right, it wouldn't change anything, it would just satisfy my curiosity. I also interpreted you correctly, because your statements don't make any sense otherwise, and you're simply backtracking on them since you can't morally or logically defend them. Why would pixelated avatars that are meant to visually represent specific demographics in reality be automatically 'gross and unlikeable' in video games but not in real life, that doesn't make any sense.
You also said that you don't feel guilty about disliking him initially 'because he's gross', yet again. Calling my posts crazy and outrageous is pure projection on your part - imagine if someone said that they find it odd how most of the villains in a game are black, or transgender, and you jumped in to comment that "Well they deserve it because they're gross and nobody likes them".
Your replies are crazy and outrageous, and you see nothing wrong with them because you seem to have sociopathic and conformist tendencies that prevent you from exercising nay critical thinking or empathy. You are only wary of insulting and dehumanizing certain 'protected demographics' like women or minorities because you belong to them yourself or because an authority figure told you that it's bad to do so and you'd get cancelled and suffer social consequences if you did. But when it comes to insulting and dehumanizing any other demographic outside of that umbrella, you have no issues with channeling your inner sadist against them and, as you said, not feeling guilty or allowing any other intelligent or civilized introspection to stop you from being a reactionary ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to anyone that your hindbrain classified as physically 'gross'.
The game accomplishes the opposite outcome of lecturing its players not to judge a book by its cover when it reinforces the confirmation bias of immature sociopaths that believe anyone who 'grosses them out' is not worthy of being liked and liable to be a villain, and most players have already made up their minds so rigidly that they don't find him 'redeemable' either - the consensus of most players who witnessed Todd's 'atonement' at the bus station is that he's still an evil gross guy who should be killed but was dumb enough to help them, which they are hardly grateful for.
It is, by definition. Rather than just silently looking down on others and keeping it to themselves, they also take a perverse pleasure in attempting ( Key word attempting, not necessarily succeeding, that's up to the victim's mental resilience ) to cause as much emotional trauma as possible by using the most juvenile and offensive terms they can think of and not just striving to ostracize groups, but openly gloating about it to adequately ensure that those groups fully absorb their hatred.
There are also several degrees of separation between not demonizing anyone without empirical basis for the unethical and malevolent nature of their actions, to looking down on no one, to *loving* everyone. They can't be joined at the hip for a singular strawman.
One of the oldest ethical principles in the world, 'The Golden Rule', already offers a consistent guideline - "Treat others the way you would want to be treated yourself", and if someone violates that rule and treats you in a manner they likely wouldn't want to be treated in, only then they do lose the clemency of that social contract.
Yeah but I'd never say that cos they aren't fat middle aged white men crying about a character in a videogame being ugly. xD
You have to jump through 10 million mental hoops in your brain to think the character is discriminating, or whatever else. Would it be better if the game had no fat middle aged men at all then? Or should they never be a villain in anything ever because you really want to identify with them and you'll start crying about it again?
Should there only ever be super nice, hero fat ugly middle aged men so you don't feel so insecure?
This is why I say your replies are crazy, you keep making stuff up and trying to give me titles then going off on little rants about me. Isn't that like hyperbole? You even STALKED me to like, 'research' my other posts, I guess? And even linking one in your first reply that had nothing to do with anything?? Creeeeep!
Kind of just sounds like you're making that up. How do you know that's what most players think? Maybe you're just wrong and assuming, like you've been doing this entire time?
But the fact Todd has a sympathetic backstory and 'redeems' himself in the end regardless of if people liked him afterwards kind of just shows the developers weren't using him to 'dehumanise' or discriminate fat middle aged men I think. Don't you at least think they maybe just did it poorly, but not deliberately?
What would you change about Todd then? Be honest, would you have a problem if he wasn't a white man?
Yeah, you're definitely a teenager, aren't you? That's why you dodged the question. Only your favorite form of bigotry is justified, all the others are horrible. Plenty of racists who say they'd never complain about Asians or whatever because 'they aren't gross icky black men', misogynists who'll say they'll never be racist because at least women are actually irrational and manipulative, and so on.
And I must be a fat middle-aged guy to care about it just like you have to be black to care about racism, right? I hope you never meet any fat middle-aged doctors, or fathers, or store clerks, or anyone else you might need help from or have to interact with, considering they'll probably be polite to you while you'll be a brat and call them gross and unlikeable behind their backs.
And the only you can respond is by using infantile strawmen. What would be better is very simple - if there was at least a reasonable mix of fat, ugly, or middle-aged men being protagonists, neutral characters, and villains, rather than just villains. Regardless, you've already exposed yourself as a massive hypocritical body-shamer and bigot.
>"This is why I say your replies are crazy, you keep making stuff up and trying to give me titles then going off on little rants about me."
What's made up? All you need to do is treat those 'gross fat ugly middle-aged men' as you would want others to treat you or as you'd treat anyone else, which is an easy task for any human being who is not a sociopathic bully, but seemingly too difficult for you.
>"You even STALKED me to like, 'research' my other posts, I guess? And even linking one in your first reply that had nothing to do with anything?? Creeeeep!"
You're not doing anything to me by using the same nicknames you throw around in your highschool to bully people, you're just wasting your time. I already pointed you to a dictionary, and that's all you needed. The only part you're getting right is that I wanted to research the opinions of the hateful spoiled princess I was talking to, and that turned out to be a fruitful endeavor since you were evidently also a solipsistic hypocrite on top of it.
>"Kind of just sounds like you're making that up. How do you know that's what most players think?"
You could use your brain to ponder it rather than asking me, but if you've already decided to do the latter, the answer is not very complicated - I watched a lot of playthroughs and read a lot of comments, so I know how a representative sample of players feel about various characters and segments of the story.
>"But the fact Todd has a sympathetic backstory and 'redeems' himself in the end regardless of if people liked him afterwards kind of just shows the developers weren't using him to 'dehumanise' or discriminate fat middle aged men I think. Don't you at least think they maybe just did it poorly, but not deliberately?"
It's really bizarre how you keep alternating between aggressive and unapologetic, constantly belittling and dehumanizing fat, ugly or middle-aged men as 'gross and unlikeable, to being defensive and arguing whether it was unintentional and that Todd is a sympathetic character, even while saying that *nobody likes* fat middle-aged men by virtue of their existence, which means no sympathy is possible and you are contradicting yourself.
That being said, if it was just Todd, that would be one thing. If it was Todd and Zlatko both but there was also at least one character with similar superficial characteristics who wasn't a raging maniac or cartoon villain, that might also get a pass from me. But considering they made Todd and Zlatko both the same way, and that all the protagonists are supermodels, even as androids, that creates a problematic pattern.
>What would you change about Todd then? Be honest, would you have a problem if he wasn't a white man?
As I've said, since you are obsessed with race and gender and only care about issues you can relate to, your project your self-centered hypocrisy on me and believe I must have some hidden underlying motive. There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever for me to lie to you on an empty thread in Steam, completely anonymously, and your reactions don't phase me, so you can rest assured - I never paid any attention whatsoever to their skin color.
I, like a lot of decent people one earth and almost every single notable moral philosopher, simply hate shallow, vapid, judgmental snobs who need to put others down for their appearance even if those groups have done nothing wrong to them. I really don't get how this is so hard to grasp, maybe if you broached the subject with individuals outside of whichever 'Mean Girls' social circle you usually hang out in, you'd understand better.
Yeah me too!
If that's what it takes for you to be happy Kenji! I'd still play the game, it wouldn't make the game any less fun for me.
I wouldn't treat a fat ugly middle aged man any differently from anyone else. I'd just think he's gross!
Well we weren't 'talking', you did that on your very first reply to me. And I still don't see what my other post has to do with anything? There's nothing similar. All you did was admit you stalked me after I replied to you once!
Okay, but I did that too and all the playthroughs I watched and comments I read thought Todd was an angel!
You're the one who is saying no sympathy is possible, not me! xD
Why do you think that about fat ugly middle aged men? I only think they are gross!
Todd and Zlatko are not the same at all, I had to google Zlatko to even remember him! He was a very boring and crappy character, he was also incredibly minor.
Not all the protagonists are supermodels. Hank is an old and ugly drunk, but he's my favourite character BY FAR. Do you mean all android characters? I don't think even that is true either though...
You seem to be looking at all the characters one dimensionally (I dunno if I'm using that right), you care too much about how they look. I think that's wrong.
I don't think most people who play the game are gonna come to the conclusion that all fat ugly middle aged men are bad because of Todd and..... Zlatko?
They don't like the characters and move on. That's it. I seriously don't think the developers are trying to discriminate or anything. You said it creates a problematic pattern though? I can kind of see why you'd maybe think that.. but I don't agree.
Its what we call a 'David Cagism' as they are sterotypes or motifs you see in virtually all of his games: Mirror gazing (all games), A protagonist with short hair ( Kara, Jodie, Madison), A cop/detective (Norman, Hank, Connor, Tyler, Carla, Shelby), hell Todd himself is basically an asset flip of the rapist at the bar from beyond two souls, complete with the same VA
( https://beyondtwosouls.fandom.com/wiki/Earl ).
David really likes to make it clear who the bad guys in his games are with little ambiguity. I mean when you cast Willem Dafoe in literally anything you KNOW what you're getting rofl.