Ending Bugged - Always Coup?

[MrSmiley]

I've played through the game twice now, 3.0 and 3.0.2 and both seem to always end in a coup that comes from nowhere. With the second time, after Rizia is fully put back together and everyone seems happy with my rule, my lover who is pregnant with my son along with her entire house suddenly coups because I didn't name the son my heir, at which point I fight a long on-going war, and have an ending speech about my son being the future?

Then I reload the save and name the son my heir and instead I get a country-wide revolution? It's the exact same problem I had when Suzerain first came out. For some reason the developers want to give you the Game of Thrones ending with no foretelling or way to stop it.

I don't understand why the developers do this to themselves - either I must be stupid or they write 90% of a great story then just ♥♥♥♥ you over in an ending, which just ruins the entire story you've just played.

[stm8022]

Originally posted by Zortag:

I admit that I peeked online to see that it was Sal whodunnit, even though there was no narrative reason or hint that this was the case.

You can make educated guess it was him from the information you're given: Hugo visits the king right before he's found dead, but Pabel mentions he saw king acting strange when he brought him his evening tea before that, meaning the poison had to be delivered by someone who visited even earlier. That leaves only Sal and Titus, and Sal has potentially more of a motive than Titus, all things considered.

[stm8022]

Hmm, i've peeked into the save file a little out of curiosity, and checked what the noble houses actually thought of my rule:

[\"RiziaDLC.Country_HouseToras\"]=-1,
[\"RiziaDLC.Country_HouseSazon\"]=-2,
[\"RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro\"]=4,

So it turns out Azaro actually had a positive opinion, and they still went and did a coup. I don't even.

[stm8022]

So, after experimenting with the variables above, it appears that you need to have opinion of at least 9 points with Toras/Azaro to avoid the coup.

Now, considering that you start at 0 with House Azaro, that there's only maybe 20 decrees total *tops* which improve their opinion (by 1 point each), that half of these piss off common folks and/or impose red modifiers on your country, and that pretty much every single decree which addresses social issues is -1 penalty to opinion of the noble houses... oh, and that you'll only have time/resources to enact maybe 20-25 real decrees in total over the whole game... simply put, this is *rough*.

If that is the idea of "balanced check" i can only respectfully disagree and suggest rethinking it and lowering that threshold a bit. Or at the very least, maybe have the player's accomplishments in the game to also have *some* impact on these opinions. Because right now they seem to have none and the results can be rather absurd.

(it doesn't help that the game also appears to either be buggy or feed false information to the player, and some of these decrees with positive indicators don't actually improve opinions at all)

[Mr. Nowak]

Hey all. Opinions aren't the only trigger for coups. Its a complex combination check. The hotfix patch reduced thresholds significantly and we are reading more feedback on the balance still.

[stm8022]

Originally posted by Mr. Nowak:

Hey all. Opinions aren't the only trigger for coups. Its a complex combination check. The hotfix patch reduced thresholds significantly and we are reading more feedback on the balance still.

This is why i have asked for maybe some specifics, and tried to provide a more detailed description of the situation in which the coup has occurred. Can you honestly say that you think the scenario i have described makes any real sense to you?

I imagine there's a possibility some of your checks may be done against things which already penalize the player with direct hits to house opinions, effectively intensifying the effects way beyond what in practice could be considered reasonable.

[Mr. Nowak]

We check for both power and opinion and game choices. It's a combination of dozens of combos. We would need save files to analyze if design is intended or not. The discussions are best had through our internal reporting system in Discord here: https://discord.com/channels/473940883906232360/1132972170960719983

[stm8022]

Originally posted by Mr. Nowak:

We check for both power and opinion and game choices. It's a combination of dozens of combos. We would need save files to analyze if design is intended or not.

I can save you that work, I have checked the relevant part of the game's script:

    - title: Condition_1
    - title: Instruction_1
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = false

    - title: Condition_2
      value: (Variable["RiziaDLC.Taddeus_Arrested"] == true  or Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Arrested"] == true  or  Variable["RiziaDLC.Taddeus_Disgraced"] == true)  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Married"] == false
    - title: Instruction_2
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] < -8
    - title: Instruction_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Married"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Successor_Vina"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] < 3
    - title: Instruction_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Married"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Successor_Vina"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Vina_Escapes"] == true
    - title: Instruction_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.PalesOwnership_Azaros"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] > -2
    - title: Instruction_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = false

    - title: Condition_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] > 8
    - title: Instruction_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = false

It's combination of conditions 2 & 7: Lucita has been arrested for her idiotic false flag operation i.e. before any marriage could happen, and the relationship with the House Azaro is below 9. I'll maintain my opinion that 9+ is unreasonably high threshold to meet, standings-wise. Similarly, i think that not taking into account the player's successes in running the country is also, imo, quite counter-intuitive and likely to sour a number of successful playthroughs with what feels like a very arbitrary "gotcha!". Is this good design? You tell me.

But more importantly, there's some bugs in code which is relevant to the situation.

This is the code for checking whether House Azaro is actually capable of staging a coup:

    - title: Condition_1
    - title: Instruction_1
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
    
    - title: Condition_2
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Council_Security_Lucita"] == true  and  (Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_Order_RizianForeignIntelligence_Expanded"] == true  or  Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_RemoveProvincialLevies"] == false)
    - title: Instruction_2
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = true
      
    - title: Condition_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_IncreaseProvincialLevies"] == true  or  Variable["RiziaDLC.Situation_Diplomacy_PowerProjection_Overwhelming"] == true
    - title: Instruction_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = true
      
    - title: Condition_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Situation_Law_ProvincialTax_CardesseMontaklarLowered"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_RemoveProvincialLevies"] == false  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_RemoveProvincialPolice"] == false
    - title: Instruction_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = true
      
    - title: Condition_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Pales_War"] == true
    - title: Instruction_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
      
    - title: Condition_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Taddeus_Arrested"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Arrested"] == true
    - title: Instruction_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
      
    - title: Condition_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.War_Happened"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Army_Unit_Azaro_Total"] == 0
    - title: Instruction_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
      
    - title: Condition_8
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Reform_Success"] == true
    - title: Instruction_8
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false

Unfortunately, there is a bug: Issuing the decree to "Remove Provincial Levies" doesn't reset the flag RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_IncreaseProvincialLevies. And the Condition 3 only checks the latter. As a result, if the player issues decree to increase provincial levies, and then later issues order to remove provincial levies, the game still thinks the noble houses have increased forces and thus power to coup, even though they no longer should, having no actual force at their disposal.

This error is also present in Condition 2 for House Toras. As a result they'll be flagged as having power to coup even though (initially expanded) levies have been removed.

[Majima Kun]

Originally posted by stm8022:

Originally posted by Mr. Nowak:

We check for both power and opinion and game choices. It's a combination of dozens of combos. We would need save files to analyze if design is intended or not.

I can save you that work, I have checked the relevant part of the game's script:

    - title: Condition_1
    - title: Instruction_1
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = false

    - title: Condition_2
      value: (Variable["RiziaDLC.Taddeus_Arrested"] == true  or Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Arrested"] == true  or  Variable["RiziaDLC.Taddeus_Disgraced"] == true)  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Married"] == false
    - title: Instruction_2
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] < -8
    - title: Instruction_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Married"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Successor_Vina"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] < 3
    - title: Instruction_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Married"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Successor_Vina"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Vina_Escapes"] == true
    - title: Instruction_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = true

    - title: Condition_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.PalesOwnership_Azaros"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] > -2
    - title: Instruction_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = false

    - title: Condition_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Country_HouseAzaro"] > 8
    - title: Instruction_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Ending_Coup_Azaro"] = false

It's combination of conditions 2 & 7: Lucita has been arrested for her idiotic false flag operation i.e. before any marriage could happen, and the relationship with the House Azaro is below 9. I'll maintain my opinion that 9+ is unreasonably high threshold to meet, standings-wise. Similarly, i think that not taking into account the player's successes in running the country is also, imo, quite counter-intuitive and likely to sour a number of successful playthroughs with what feels like a very arbitrary "gotcha!". Is this good design? You tell me.

But more importantly, there's some bugs in code which is relevant to the situation.

This is the code for checking whether House Azaro is actually capable of staging a coup:

    - title: Condition_1
    - title: Instruction_1
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
    - title: IsConditionalInstruction
    
    - title: Condition_2
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Council_Security_Lucita"] == true  and  (Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_Order_RizianForeignIntelligence_Expanded"] == true  or  Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_RemoveProvincialLevies"] == false)
    - title: Instruction_2
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = true
      
    - title: Condition_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_IncreaseProvincialLevies"] == true  or  Variable["RiziaDLC.Situation_Diplomacy_PowerProjection_Overwhelming"] == true
    - title: Instruction_3
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = true
      
    - title: Condition_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Situation_Law_ProvincialTax_CardesseMontaklarLowered"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_RemoveProvincialLevies"] == false  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_RemoveProvincialPolice"] == false
    - title: Instruction_4
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = true
      
    - title: Condition_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Pales_War"] == true
    - title: Instruction_5
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
      
    - title: Condition_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Taddeus_Arrested"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Lucita_Arrested"] == true
    - title: Instruction_6
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
      
    - title: Condition_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.War_Happened"] == true  and  Variable["RiziaDLC.Army_Unit_Azaro_Total"] == 0
    - title: Instruction_7
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false
      
    - title: Condition_8
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Reform_Success"] == true
    - title: Instruction_8
      value: Variable["RiziaDLC.Azaro_HasPowerToCoup"] = false

Unfortunately, there is a bug: Issuing the decree to "Remove Provincial Levies" doesn't reset the flag RiziaDLC.Policy_RD_Order_IncreaseProvincialLevies. And the Condition 3 only checks the latter. As a result, if the player issues decree to increase provincial levies, and then later issues order to remove provincial levies, the game still thinks the noble houses have increased forces and thus power to coup, even though they no longer should, having no actual force at their disposal.

This error is also present in Condition 2 for House Toras. As a result they'll be flagged as having power to coup even though (initially expanded) levies have been removed.

Wow, that’s impressive investigation work.

I think a similar conflict also happens if you legalize recreational drugs but also enacted an anti narcotics campaign, though it’s not as end breaking as the coups.

[caseygoddard]

Out of curiosity, did anyone get the report from the king's uncle a few turns before the end of the game? In my case he said that all three houses were continent with my reign thus far. Thus, it was kind of a shock that Azaro rebelled.

For better or worse, Suzerain has opaque mechanics. Even so, I think it's important to provide accurate feedback to the player in-game and point out mechanisms that let them adjust accordingly (either moving forward or on a subsequent playthrough). While arguing about threshold numbers in the code is all well and good, the truth is House Azaro only has two representatives in the game, Luctia, the council member, and her father. My character was married to the former and had the enthusiastic approval of the latter. That coupled with the report from the king's uncle made the ending a confused moment for me because it was so out of nowhere.

I think the dev team (in terms of medium to long term post-launch support) might want to re-evaluate the scripting as a whole rather than just tweaking a value in the programming.

[Reptiloid]

Didn't happen to me until I tried to arrest Lucia. In my original run I didn't do that cause I wanted to romance her, but alas. So instead I framed my uncle for the murder, because ♥♥♥♥ him and his nephew for trying to fornicate with my daughter, that's why. He kinda warned me about my family being unhappy with me, so I was actively looking how to get rid of him. I got a merry ending with Vina marrying Duke of Pales and becoming my heir, so nope, I don't think it is always coup.

[Majima Kun]

Originally posted by caseygoddard:

Out of curiosity, did anyone get the report from the king's uncle a few turns before the end of the game? In my case he said that all three houses were continent with my reign thus far. Thus, it was kind of a shock that Azaro rebelled.

For better or worse, Suzerain has opaque mechanics. Even so, I think it's important to provide accurate feedback to the player in-game and point out mechanisms that let them adjust accordingly (either moving forward or on a subsequent playthrough). While arguing about threshold numbers in the code is all well and good, the truth is House Azaro only has two representatives in the game, Luctia, the council member, and her father. My character was married to the former and had the enthusiastic approval of the latter. That coupled with the report from the king's uncle made the ending a confused moment for me because it was so out of nowhere.

I think the dev team (in terms of medium to long term post-launch support) might want to re-evaluate the scripting as a whole rather than just tweaking a value in the programming.

I haven't had this issue happen in Rizia, but I had this happen in the base game. It was pretty bad in the early 2.0 days. I end up in nationwide unrest with a decent overview. So sadly I'm not surprised.

Also now I have an opposite problem where my Bludish opinion is always low during the review but always high in the end because the VP overview happens before the Minority Act.

There might be a systemic issue where your relationship values with certain groups are at a limit where a single nudge downward after the overview can cause it to spiral.

[Lumidas]

Originally posted by Das Boot:

I got the coup ending too. In my first playthrough I couldn't afford to restore the Golden Guard to its full strength. If I had, would it have been enough to win the coup?

Or is the only way to avoid it to not get close to Lucita in the first place?

I restored the golden guard + reunified with Pales through marriage + married Lucita + arrested and executed Hugo and his son... Yet at the end game Hugo magically appears leading a COUP and getting rid of me WTF?????????