Blackholt Goblins....

[MasterFool]

This looks to be somewhat interesting, a good fill-in (lore-wise) for the goblin folk. I'm hoping it has more implications to the main story than it currently appears. If the goblin-kind are too weak, they can't help Rowan as much as they need to if he plans to throw the twins down and out of power.

I see his allies in this task (whether he's operating on the good side of things or to become his own tyrannical leader sort) as either the Orcs of the North or the Refugees of Rastadel, combined with the Goblins, maybe Clohina, Cla-Min and other various factions he's saved or lined up with, like the Fey.

However, what I see in the Goblins so far is that the Prince capitulates a little too quickly to Jezera and for too little gain. The Cla-Min arc alone should have Rowan subtly helping the Prince or sinking him lower (if he plans to stay with the Twins). I'm seeing some movement in those directions but not really enough for the influence he enjoys with the Prince and Jezera. He's in the drivers seat here, especially with Jezera's apparent apathy. This should be a far clearer point for the player to decide what Rowans intended future is and it should have tighter writing here. Hints to the player should also be present in spades.
Now, having said that, I haven't exhausted all of the choices/options here so I'm only speaking on a general 'tone' of what I'm seeing so far. I assume a lot more is coming since only a small amount of it is here.

[trojanz27]

Too little gain? The goblins have NO HOME right now. He got the goblin ancestral nation restored that will be self ruled but a vassal state. Given the nature of the twins, he scored a huge win all around.

[MasterFool]

We're looking at the gain differently. If his only goal is to regain his homelands but not actually be in charge of them, instead be a vassal state of the Twins empire... then yeah, I agree with you, he fully got the win.

In fact, in that very exchange, it pointed out how their significant differences in governance (and approach to 'order') would make it problematic for the twins and goblins both to co-exist. You then got a few diplomatic platitudes of 'yeah but we'll make it work'. I accept that the encounter is new, but this text feels like a weak-sauce placeholder for what could be a true eye-opener to the end game.

The devil is in the details and Rowan knows this. If he is all for the twins ruling, he should say something to Jezera before she leaves. Something along the lines of "Hey, you know there is no way the goblins will accept your edicts or rule in the way the Orcs do. You might want to consider some way to keep iron-clad control of them." She could counter task him with that problem and then his time among the goblins takes on a different feel since he's now figuring out how to undermine the goblins entirely and castrate them for good.

If he is out to destroy the twins, then he'd let Jezera think she's got a handle on it and almost immediately start finding ways to subvert the goblins to his 'side' of things, much like he can do with the Northern Orcs. Instead we are presented with a lot of introductions and future quests.

My point is that what goes on with the Blackholt Goblins will need to be more intense than the OrcAid quest, likely twice as detailed since this group would be absolutely critical to undermining the twins with real surprise. The Goblins would need to build the machines and provide the technical drive of any opposition plans to the twins future desires.

That intensity is not there and the dialog feels rushed and shallow. This is essentially a story within the story and it needs to be given the attention to detail that a critical sub-story needs. OrcAid comes close to such a sub-story but that really toes the line of being a large quest (like taking Rastadel). The goblin arc feels far larger than that in the needed scope but can't seem to make up it's mind in initial presentation.

I mean if Jezera makes the deal with Tue-Row, then it's a done deal and why is there any more need for Rowan even to be there? Plot wise, it's unnecessary. However, if the deal is just window dressing for far larger machinations, then the entire story that follows is critical.

[stm8022]

The goblin army is basically alternative path to Rastedel, instead of getting orc army. It was just sitting on the back burner literally for years and it's only now getting work done.

Plot-wise you're there because, while the deal was technically made, the goblins are unable to provide you with the actual assistance you need until you help them sort out their internal issues.

[MasterFool]

The goblin army is basically alternative path to Rastedel, instead of getting orc army. It was just sitting on the back burner literally for years and it's only now getting work done.

If this is true, not saying it isn't, then they've waited so long that the 'alternate path' has long since been lost to time. You don't actually need to successfully end OrcAid with the Orc army. Sure, the twins are pissed off, but you can take Rastadel with just your own forces provided you've built up Bloodmein Castle to its maximum. So, at this point, the Goblin army, under the current story line, has no purpose for the twins other than to bolster their forces to crush the rest of Rosaria. That part makes sense, but also from a plot perspective, it is an army primed to serve Rowan because of Tue-Row's hero worship of him.

Plot-wise you're there because, while the deal was technically made, the goblins are unable to provide you with the actual assistance you need until you help them sort out their internal issues.

Yes, but HOW you sort out those issues sets them either to serve the twins... or Rowan. That seems to be the core plot here.

I'll go back to the statement I made on the other thread, Rowan+Alexia as antagonist to the twins must be power balanced against them, give and take, throughout the story or that side of the story falls flat on its face.

Rowan+Alexia as ally to the twins doesn't need the balance as that choice fully removes that side of the story from play. You're just playing to be the devil's champion at that point, which has a story all to it's own.

(Spoiler Alert: Many players don't know that the first deity dream you receive, if played correctly (incorrectly?), can be from Karos- NOT Solansia! I have played Rowan down that path a couple of times, it's harsh! I LOVE that the Devs take these extreme positions into consideration.)

[stm8022]

Originally posted by MasterFool:

If this is true, not saying it isn't, then they've waited so long that the 'alternate path' has long since been lost to time.

It's on their Patreon, in one of the few public post: https://www.patreon.com/posts/news-from-six-71-63831141

Yes, one could say the delay was so long, it kind of makes this side-plot pretty pointless. But from the perspective of a fresh player who will only experience the game with the goblin arc implemented, that's just more content, with additional goblins to bang. So i don't think they'll mind, or view it the same way.

I'd say you're right viewing the goblins as potential Rowan's ally, more so than the orcs at least, but if this angle is ever used, it's probably going to be quite later than the Rastedel arc, and there won't be any early maneuvering to this effect. In large part because it makes writing more streamlined and thus easier to manage.

[MasterFool]

Originally posted by stm8022:

Yes, one could say the delay was so long, it kind of makes this side-plot pretty pointless. But from the perspective of a fresh player who will only experience the game with the goblin arc implemented, that's just more content, with additional goblins to bang. So i don't think they'll mind, or view it the same way.

Despite what they say in public, in game there are issues with this approach. I decided to do the goblin arc as soon as it was possible to see if you could 'avoid' OrcAid altogether and the goblin arc as currently written can be done and over with in two weeks. They clearly have more content in the future, but unless it totally overlaps the time-frame in which you would normally be doing OrcAid, it makes both paths viable. You also have the issue that you can't do the Delane arcs without OrcAid and we aren't seeing anything comparable inside of the Goblin arcs to compete with the Rastadel effects that Delane can have.

I'd say you're right viewing the goblins as potential Rowan's ally, more so than the orcs at least, but if this angle is ever used, it's probably going to be quite later than the Rastedel arc, and there won't be any early maneuvering to this effect. In large part because it makes writing more streamlined and thus easier to manage.

So it might be an 'alternative' path but it's not presently a good one for Rowan unless there is something in it for Rowan to make it a better choice, thus back to my original point, the goblins are a superior choice for Rowan to rise up against the twins with. It would be wise for the devs to make it possible to rescue/release Delane with just a couple of weeks and less RNG effects to that path. Thus you could keep the Delane/Rastadel effects with a 'good' Rowan and the Goblin allies as a hedge against the twins.

It needs lots of work no matter which way they go with it, streamlined or not.