Crafting, inventory management and useless steps

[Narbow]

Really enjoying the game so far, but it has the same flaws that a huge lot of games with crafting system have and it's making me kinda annoyed that they all have it.
Pointless steps to craft stuff:
Why do i need to craft nails to then craft something else ? I know it's a small step for realism but i mean why could'nt each recipe just use the base material ?
Same thing for thread. Same thing for wood that is then used to make wood construction blocks then you can finally build something. I don't care if it's unrealistic. It's just a small useless step, and it's even worse when you have to craft stuff in another menu or at another crafting station.
Cumbersome inventory management:
I was kind of excited seeing they implemented a system to access your base inventory when crafting to gain time, but i'm not sure why they would lock it behind a recipe.
Please, crafting games. Just let me have a massive automatic base inventory where all crafting stuff is automatically added when i'm coming back.
I'm tired of the "get to base, spend 3 min putting stuff in the right chest so i can stay organised, then try to craft something only to realise i first need to craft some nails first, etc.." game loop.
I don't get why devs are'nt streamlining those process. It has make me give up on so many crafting games.

Like i want to explore your cool world and build cool stuff with your cool system. Can we cut to that ?

[Eightball]

Just as a foil to your 'craft from the base materials' approach I would offer that such a system would 'break' some of the progression of the game.

If, for instance, I could craft a new piece of armor with just the raw copper ore then I would have no need for a smelter to make copper ingots. And with no need of a smelter there would be no need for the quest the Blacksmith sends you on for that same smelter. And that quest the Blacksmith would have sent you on is like the other additional tool quests that every crafter sends you on; quests that progressively lead you into higher level areas so you can gain higher level resources to progress your gear.

I suppose you could still have players 'build' things like smelters, but if you would not need them to process anything then why have the player build them at all?

As you note, many games have the systems you consider flaws, but there must be players that like them otherwise they would not still be used.

Some people like their games to play themselves (idle games) while others like to play their games. One isn't more right than the other, but one definitely has a smaller audience than the other. I would hazard to say it is the same with your suggestion.

[HKesadilla]

Why would someone use a record player when they could just stream the song? Same concept here. The necessity of inconvenience is sometimes warranted. Neither approach is wrong but sometimes, the steps to achieve something is what matters.

[emp456]

Originally posted by Eightball:

Just as a foil to your 'craft from the base materials' approach I would offer that such a system would 'break' some of the progression of the game.

If, for instance, I could craft a new piece of armor with just the raw copper ore then I would have no need for a smelter to make copper ingots. And with no need of a smelter there would be no need for the quest the Blacksmith sends you on for that same smelter. And that quest the Blacksmith would have sent you on is like the other additional tool quests that every crafter sends you on; quests that progressively lead you into higher level areas so you can gain higher level resources to progress your gear.

I suppose you could still have players 'build' things like smelters, but if you would not need them to process anything then why have the player build them at all?

As you note, many games have the systems you consider flaws, but there must be players that like them otherwise they would not still be used.

Some people like their games to play themselves (idle games) while others like to play their games. One isn't more right than the other, but one definitely has a smaller audience than the other. I would hazard to say it is the same with your suggestion.

I interpreted what the OP said in a different way than you. But i was probably wrong.

I thought that what he said is for the game to allow automatic use of the base materials a recipe needs, not have only base materials for any recipe.

Of course that in that case there would be still need for the smelter and its quest to get it, but once we have it, the ingots recipes will unlock and will not need the player to manually use the smelter first as a mandatory intermediary process.

So i interpreted what he said as other crafting games do sometimes: automatically adding the base materials for a recipe, all in 1 step. I mean, like Factorio does, for instance.

The big difference here is that Factorio is a futuristic game about automating every process and so automatic recipes fits well, but Enshrouded is a fantasy game with medieval way to craft gear and weapons. Well, except for the magic, of course and that could always be used as advanced technology to make a Factorio system to use recipes. But it will not fit well, imo.

Anyway, that's what i thought the OP was saying, to remove intermediate steps when we click craft something so the game automatically uses the resources that are already in our chests and automatically crafting the middle steps as some other games do, but not to remove any middle resource to craft anything or the benches those recources need. For the gameplay it will be exactly the same, we will need not only all the basic materials but also the benches to craft each of those and the only difference would be clicking once to make something instead of having to go to a chest, pick this basic resource, go to that NPC, craft that intermediate resource, go to that other chest, pick the second basic resource, go to the other NPC, craft the second intermediate resource and finally go to the crafting bench to craft the final product.

It would be a technical "improvement" or change and will only remove the need to do every middle step manually. Using the magic chests version, ofc to take advantage of the automatic use of resources, otherwise the player would need gather every recource and have it on its inventory before 1 click crafting the final product.

All that said, indeed there are people who like to do all the steps manually as it's also part of a simulation in a game. I like complex crafting games so i like to manually do every step, but this is not a complex crafting game, nor has deep crafting mechanics at all and remember all the complaints when it released because it had no automatical use of resources from chests at beginning so they had to let players to craft the magical chests earlier. The need to use a NPC as an intermediary "bench" only for some craftings is also weird and feels inconsistent as there are "real" benches to use in game that have other craftings while both kinds of "benches" sometimes share the same specific crafting. It all feels inconsistent. The whole system seems to be made as an excuse for having those NPCs and the result was all the complaints to make NPC's feel alive instead of just a weird, another fixed crafting bench you just place on a corner of your base.

So technically an option to aumatically craft anything if we have the recipe, have finished the quest to have the NPC and then the ("real" lol) bench plus all intermediate resources could be considered an improvement for some other people who don't care about that and consider it a hassle. As almost everything, having a menu setting to toggle that before loading our saves or when creating a new game will be perfection for every kind of player.

BTW, having that option could be the perfect chance, now than NPC's move to make the base more "alive", to classify and re-unite every kind of crafting at its respective logical crafting bench without the need to go to a NPC to craft certain things, which was a questionable and weird design decision, perhaps to avoid precisely working on the NPCs at that point, to be able to release at EA as soon as possible and one day that could be changed. Players very early complained about that and forced the devs to make the NPCs move and roam, and i'm sure they will continue to improve that to make them feel even more like there's someone with us at our bases.

But having "crafting benches" that move on their own and forces players to go find them to be able to craft something is also weird and uncomfortable hence why there are threads and comments all around these forums about better limiting the NPCs roam radio to the minimum at the settings, which it's ironical as it's the contrary that people asked for to have "alive" NPCs and an animated base, but that's because the actual crafting system that still forces us to "use" the NPCs as we use the other crafting stations. Imo, that should be reorganized and NPCs removed as another crafting station.

If they do that, then NPCs will not have any practical constant "use" (ie acting as a moving crafting bench) even if they will still be needed to unlock things first time or to give us quests but perhaps that change will open the door for the devs to be more creative with the NPCs, to present the story and lore in another way and to find reasons to have them around our town as at some point they will become simple mobile decorations.

Imo, and sorry for the long text, but i think all is related to the OP's comments about the system.

[Narbow]

Originally posted by Eightball:

Just as a foil to your 'craft from the base materials' approach I would offer that such a system would 'break' some of the progression of the game.

If, for instance, I could craft a new piece of armor with just the raw copper ore then I would have no need for a smelter to make copper ingots. And with no need of a smelter there would be no need for the quest the Blacksmith sends you on for that same smelter. And that quest the Blacksmith would have sent you on is like the other additional tool quests that every crafter sends you on; quests that progressively lead you into higher level areas so you can gain higher level resources to progress your gear.

I suppose you could still have players 'build' things like smelters, but if you would not need them to process anything then why have the player build them at all?

As you note, many games have the systems you consider flaws, but there must be players that like them otherwise they would not still be used.

Some people like their games to play themselves (idle games) while others like to play their games. One isn't more right than the other, but one definitely has a smaller audience than the other. I would hazard to say it is the same with your suggestion.

I don't think stuff like charcoal and smelted ore is wrong tho.
I'm okay with the usual ingots that takes time to cook because it introduce a pacing in the game. I was talking about the smaller steps which are mostly menu steps (clicking craft on some intermediary ingredient) like the threads, or the building blocks.
I'm not saying the game should be playing itself, but i'm not sure clicking craft on something to then craft something else is actually gameplay. It's just a minor thing we got used to in crafting games that i think could be streamlined. I'm okay with it when it is necessary to create some sort of milestone (one exemple i can think of is pipes in 7daytodie, which you need to create early games stuff and you have a hard time salvaging, but mid game it becomes an easy component to craft)

[Narbow]

Originally posted by emp456:

Originally posted by Eightball:

Just as a foil to your 'craft from the base materials' approach I would offer that such a system would 'break' some of the progression of the game.

If, for instance, I could craft a new piece of armor with just the raw copper ore then I would have no need for a smelter to make copper ingots. And with no need of a smelter there would be no need for the quest the Blacksmith sends you on for that same smelter. And that quest the Blacksmith would have sent you on is like the other additional tool quests that every crafter sends you on; quests that progressively lead you into higher level areas so you can gain higher level resources to progress your gear.

I suppose you could still have players 'build' things like smelters, but if you would not need them to process anything then why have the player build them at all?

As you note, many games have the systems you consider flaws, but there must be players that like them otherwise they would not still be used.

Some people like their games to play themselves (idle games) while others like to play their games. One isn't more right than the other, but one definitely has a smaller audience than the other. I would hazard to say it is the same with your suggestion.

I interpreted what the OP said in a different way than you. But i was probably wrong.

I thought that what he said is for the game to allow automatic use of the base materials a recipe needs, not have only base materials for any recipe.

Of course that in that case there would be still need for the smelter and its quest to get it, but once we have it, the ingots recipes will unlock and will not need the player to manually use the smelter first as a mandatory intermediary process.

So i interpreted what he said as other crafting games do sometimes: automatically adding the base materials for a recipe, all in 1 step. I mean, like Factorio does, for instance.

The big difference here is that Factorio is a futuristic game about automating every process and so automatic recipes fits well, but Enshrouded is a fantasy game with medieval way to craft gear and weapons. Well, except for the magic, of course and that could always be used as advanced technology to make a Factorio system to use recipes. But it will not fit well, imo.

Anyway, that's what i thought the OP was saying, to remove intermediate steps when we click craft something so the game automatically uses the resources that are already in our chests and automatically crafting the middle steps as some other games do, but not to remove any middle resource to craft anything or the benches those recources need. For the gameplay it will be exactly the same, we will need not only all the basic materials but also the benches to craft each of those and the only difference would be clicking once to make something instead of having to go to a chest, pick this basic resource, go to that NPC, craft that intermediate resource, go to that other chest, pick the second basic resource, go to the other NPC, craft the second intermediate resource and finally go to the crafting bench to craft the final product.

It would be a technical "improvement" or change and will only remove the need to do every middle step manually. Using the magic chests version, ofc to take advantage of the automatic use of resources, otherwise the player would need gather every recource and have it on its inventory before 1 click crafting the final product.

All that said, indeed there are people who like to do all the steps manually as it's also part of a simulation in a game. I like complex crafting games so i like to manually do every step, but this is not a complex crafting game, nor has deep crafting mechanics at all and remember all the complaints when it released because it had no automatical use of resources from chests at beginning so they had to let players to craft the magical chests earlier. The need to use a NPC as an intermediary "bench" only for some craftings is also weird and feels inconsistent as there are "real" benches to use in game that have other craftings while both kinds of "benches" sometimes share the same specific crafting. It all feels inconsistent. The whole system seems to be made as an excuse for having those NPCs and the result was all the complaints to make NPC's feel alive instead of just a weird, another fixed crafting bench you just place on a corner of your base.

So technically an option to aumatically craft anything if we have the recipe, have finished the quest to have the NPC and then the ("real" lol) bench plus all intermediate resources could be considered an improvement for some other people who don't care about that and consider it a hassle. As almost everything, having a menu setting to toggle that before loading our saves or when creating a new game will be perfection for every kind of player.

BTW, having that option could be the perfect chance, now than NPC's move to make the base more "alive", to classify and re-unite every kind of crafting at its respective logical crafting bench without the need to go to a NPC to craft certain things, which was a questionable and weird design decision, perhaps to avoid precisely working on the NPCs at that point, to be able to release at EA as soon as possible and one day that could be changed. Players very early complained about that and forced the devs to make the NPCs move and roam, and i'm sure they will continue to improve that to make them feel even more like there's someone with us at our bases.

But having "crafting benches" that move on their own and forces players to go find them to be able to craft something is also weird and uncomfortable hence why there are threads and comments all around these forums about better limiting the NPCs roam radio to the minimum at the settings, which it's ironical as it's the contrary that people asked for to have "alive" NPCs and an animated base, but that's because the actual crafting system that still forces us to "use" the NPCs as we use the other crafting stations. Imo, that should be reorganized and NPCs removed as another crafting station.

If they do that, then NPCs will not have any practical constant "use" (ie acting as a moving crafting bench) even if they will still be needed to unlock things first time or to give us quests but perhaps that change will open the door for the devs to be more creative with the NPCs, to present the story and lore in another way and to find reasons to have them around our town as at some point they will become simple mobile decorations.

Imo, and sorry for the long text, but i think all is related to the OP's comments about the system.

It is exactly what i was talking about, thanks.

Regarding the NPC's crafting menu, i think Backpack hero did the good thing with their campaign mode. You have different buildings with different crafting recipes, but you can build a hub that you need to connect with roads and then you can access every recipe from that hub. I think it would be easy to create some sort of system like that, like a central hub table in base, or a message board. It would also encourage you to build organically some sort of "town center" or "town hall" which would make your settlement cool imo.

The intermediary steps being streamlined in factorio are really helpful regarding intermediary components indeed. I know this is fantasy and not a futuristic game with a billion thing to craft constantly, but i'm not sure removing unnecessary steps would remove the whole flavor of crafting stuff. I think there's a huge UX design discussion to be had regarding what actually makes complex crafting systems rewarding. Because it's easy for developper to go "i'm going to makes a system that is complex" and just create a lot of unnecessary steps. Complex means i need to think about what i need and plan accordingly, and ideally be rewarded for smart planing. Having to click a lot of buttons to do anything is not what i would call "complexity". It's tedious.

The place where i could see that the most is with the base building, because it's often hard to calculate how many blocks you will need, and you need to stop building, go back to crafting bench and then build blocks to go back to actually build. It's a small thing, but it slows down the base building process a bit. I think i would be way more enclined to building complex and beautiful bases if i could just go into building mode uninterrumpted without having to think about first creating the right number of roofs/blocks/road.

[Eightball]

@emp456 I can see your take on the OPs comment. When I read 'base material' I take that as the raw, unprocessed resources need for whatever recipe. So unprocessed ore is a base material as is a Flax flower.

If I understand your take then the player would still need to establish processing 'links' by having the necessary equipment, they would just not need to actually process the material, that being done behind the scenes when I push the craft button for some item.

I could see this working, but you would then need to add a system that first checks your storage for any available 'crafted' components first (to account for those found in the world such as ingots) before it used base resources to make more. Or I suppose you could just remove processed resources (again things like ingots or linen) from world drops completely.

And I believe you are correct in why the crafting NPCs hold some recipes themselves. They are part of the overall story/lore and adding recipes to them as the player progresses keeps them relevant and keeps the player checking in with them so they dont miss new quests.

By the way you can set the wander distance of the NPCs to 0, a thing many players missed early on and possibly why there were so many early complaints.

@Narbow If you detailed your ideas for streamlining the crafting process so as to avoid different interpretations I would then suggest you submit it to the developers Upvote site as they actually refer to that site and other players can review and vote on such suggestions as well.

[wildcardbitches]

The only thing that really annoys me about the inventory is they have some stations that will auto pull from your magic boxes (basic work bench) and others you have to manually bring the items to the station for them to use (hand spinner). Why can't all stations just pull stuff from my magic boxes?

[emp456]

Originally posted by Eightball:

@emp456 I can see your take on the OPs comment. When I read 'base material' I take that as the raw, unprocessed resources need for whatever recipe. So unprocessed ore is a base material as is a Flax flower.

If I understand your take then the player would still need to establish processing 'links' by having the necessary equipment, they would just not need to actually process the material, that being done behind the scenes when I push the craft button for some item.

I could see this working, but you would then need to add a system that first checks your storage for any available 'crafted' components first (to account for those found in the world such as ingots) before it used base resources to make more. Or I suppose you could just remove processed resources (again things like ingots or linen) from world drops completely.

And I believe you are correct in why the crafting NPCs hold some recipes themselves. They are part of the overall story/lore and adding recipes to them as the player progresses keeps them relevant and keeps the player checking in with them so they dont miss new quests.

By the way you can set the wander distance of the NPCs to 0, a thing many players missed early on and possibly why there were so many early complaints.

I really wasn't sure that my interpretation was correct, and after reading your post i even thought you were right and my thinking was wrong.

And the system to check what materials we have on our storage is partiallly done with the magic chests as i imagine all we have is already on an array (all our crafting materials inside all our magic chests) to know when the player clicks to craft something if we have the materials.

So most of the work is already done and it's what the game actually does to check if we can craft a nail, arrows, an altar, etc but also when we try to craft complex items from the NPCs. For example, to craft a soldier's helmet the game needs to check if we have, either at magic chests or at our inventory, a padding, 4 charcoal and 1 iron bars to let us craft it when we click the crafting button. But if that same code could check if we have the "Hunter bench" npc, 3 fabric, 1 leather, 2 resin and 3 linen, it could accept the input without us having to go first to the hunter to craft the padding. It will just remove the resources for the padding plus the charcoal and the iron bar instead of what actually does, removing the padding itself plus the charcoal and the iron bar. It's basically the same.

As i said, this is related to how actual the system works having NPCs that are also crafting stations and how those are linked and related in between with complex recipes that need what other NPC crafts.

Now, the game has 2 types of crafting stations: the ones that use raw resources to create materials that are used in object recipes and process resources automatically (like the loom, the table say, hand spindle, force, smelter, etc) or passive crafters and the ones that craft the object recipes using the first type of crafting stations and are active, needing the player to click to craft something at that moment.

Imho, that hypothetical simplfied 1-click crafting should focus only on the recipes from the active crafters (NPCs) so the player should have already any material crafted from the passive crafters in their storage. If not, it will render the actual crafting system useless and all will need a deep change. But focusing only on what NPCs craft and, if we have all the needed basic resources, letting us 1-click from any of them should be relatively easy to implement. Add that to a game menu setting to let players choose if the game will allow that jump between NPC recipes and done.

Yes, it's easy to say and i'm not a developer, perhaps there are other issues to take into account but in general, i think it would be really fesible. Imho, again lol