Chest re spawn is stupid

[tycrus]

like the title says chests need to be looted only ones

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by Zero:

Originally posted by Nerevar:

YOU are not understanding there is no point in dealing with silly rng loot in a game with a FIXED OPEN WORLD MAP. it fully and completly defeats any point in exploration when your chance to find the same loot is the same in ANY place you are in. thats a silly design concept and never good game design for any such games. this aint diablo.

people wouldnt play the game more if that was the case. people would say : not worth doing since cap is going to raise and invalidate my efforts anyway and QUIT THE GAME instead of dealing with this silly rng table.

what use is rng loot in a game where said gear will be invalidated quicker than you can farm it? so yeah. its bad. its a terrible take on open world game design by default. may aswell make a random map then if loot is rng.

By the time your RNG lets you complete a set, that set is already obsolete, so rng gear only would really work for an actual end game, whether the map itself is RNG or not.
And as someone that has repetitive negative outcomes (or bad luck if you will) when it comes to loot RNG in all games, I really hate RNG haha
Does make for funny moments with friends, but when playing solo I dislike RNG (since I can't make a joke out of my abysmal RNG draws).
The only reason I am bothering to get all the gear drops is for the completionist addiction.

rng can work for such games IF done in the right way that it lets you slowly work towards something in steps with a fixed end result. v rising did it right with thier legendarys : bosses can randomly drop a broken legendary piece. so can random enemies aswell and chests.

however in order to actually make use of this legendary you then need to find certain rare crafting materials which are hard to obtain from specific bosses and some rare spawned materials found in certain places randomly only. this is still rng but its a WORKABLE rng concept that encourages active play instead of passive resetting as going around farming will get you always SOME progress towards it.

chests in that game also respawn. but they never spawn in the same place and they dont always contain what you need. and they arent the ONLY good source for it either. thats an rng based system that works because it encourages active play and progressing slowly with the rng based materials feels rewarding at the end.

enshrouded devs copied v risings crafting stations and castleheart systems 1 to 1. but they didnt copy the loot system behind it. which is mind boogleing to me as then we would have a WAY more interresting and engageing endgame in enshrouded. i hope they still get this memo and change thier course. as if we are still chest farming in 6 months : RIP enshrouded. game wont survive under such a terrible system. thats is certain but disabled chest respawn certainly isnt the answer for this problem. thats a terrible band aid. not a fix.

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by Danyel:

Originally posted by Nerevar:

sadly its possible to reach endgame ornate gold chest at level 1 with just basic tools aka pickaxe/building hammer and glider. i tryed that out myself. it works. it takes a good while to reach the chest but its... rather easy to pull off.

no flame levels needed as its not inside the shroud. all other lethal shroud can be bypassed. voxel world goes brrr. this is why complete building freedom and a fixed open world map and rng loot are a TERIBLE combination of elements. prevent chest respawn is not the fix or answer to this core design issue. the devs need to entirely redesign thier loot systems.

ENTIRELY. its just bad currently. make the rng and the crafting work together. aka drop rare crafting materials from CERTAIN SPECIFIC SOURCES but with a low % chance instead of this random roll 500 items table we have currently. then let the player find these materials and make them craft the legendary. this way you have rng and crafting and both work together. instead of makeing each other invalid like they do currently.

the devs did not think the current system trough at all.

If someone is going to bother doing this there no point in changing anything anyways cause they will exploit their way using some other method anyways. We can't expect the devs to police every single scenario.

It's not the dev's job to police people and make sure they don't ruin the game for themselves due to a flagrant lack of self control. That's a "me" problem and not a "game" problem.

Also it would be far easier to change the crafting system and levels and maybe make the special endgame chest gear have different stats and the like on them.

I am not convinced they need to rehaul the whole loot system or that its even a viable thing to look into right now as I feel there other areas that need work.

the sad part is : this aint an exploit. its a totally legit thing you can just do. it requires knowing where the chests are first of course. so it wont work on a blind run.

but no. the loot system NEEDS an overhaul. it might not be realistic to expect one NOW but it needs a change. the current one is simply garbage. as it discourages active play. thats never good game design.

this is a game about crafting and building. the best stuff should require complex crafting with hard to find materials and not some random bs loot from a boss or chest that is already fully finished. that goes againist the games crafting system as a concept.

[Anima Mundi]

The easiest way to fix this issue is to put all good gear loot on Mobs with RNG instead of chests.

This way people can still farm for better loot, but they will actually be playing the game instead of Reloading simulator. Also getting XP and leveling up so by the time you get a super specific item it might already be too low level.

The system has pros and cons. I also prefer a persistent world, but then there's a lot of #feelsbadman when you keep progressing through levels without getting good gear, or getting gear that's for a totally different class.

A respawning world allows us to farm for gear, but then it also makes completely obsolete and useless 90% of the items in the game.
I have seen a ton of great looking weapons even early game, that will never see any real use (except role play) due to the fact they're too weak and you can just reload to find better.

I like looting system that makes every item feel a bit special, and perhaps a much more rare RNG for gear drops from mobs would make looting exciting again.
At the same time maybe greatly reduce XP gains from same and lower lvl mobs, or just remove it, so that the progression is not so accelerated.
At the moment even mining feels like it gives too much XP. The first char i started for co-op with friends quickly got to Lvl 16 when we were still in lvl ~10 areas, and our lowest guy was lvl 8. This was me actually trying to wait for others for progression, and simply doing mining / revisiting areas we previously cleared.

TL;DR in the current system, no, i don't think chests state should be made persistent, it wouldn't make sense. But perhaps a rework of the gear drop/.loot system that would make all non-meta items feel useful, including crafted gear, would be a better solution.

[Madnesis]

I got the chests listed: https://enshrouded.featureupvote.com/suggestions/527154/world-persistence

[Anima Mundi]

Originally posted by Nerevar:

as it discourages active play. thats never good game design.

this is a game about crafting and building. the best stuff should require complex crafting with hard to find materials and not some random bs loot from a boss or chest that is already fully finished. that goes againist the games crafting system as a concept.

Oh yea, pretty much my point on your first paragraph there.
About the last part though, no, i don't think crafted stuff should always be better. It should be good, and should be more reliable to make, but a looting system where a super rare drop is better than anything you can craft is always exciting.
But like you said, if a resetting world is gonna be a thing, then Gear farming should have an emphasis on active gameplay - not on loading screens and opening chests

[Danyel]

Originally posted by Nerevar:

Originally posted by Danyel:

If someone is going to bother doing this there no point in changing anything anyways cause they will exploit their way using some other method anyways. We can't expect the devs to police every single scenario.

It's not the dev's job to police people and make sure they don't ruin the game for themselves due to a flagrant lack of self control. That's a "me" problem and not a "game" problem.

Also it would be far easier to change the crafting system and levels and maybe make the special endgame chest gear have different stats and the like on them.

I am not convinced they need to rehaul the whole loot system or that its even a viable thing to look into right now as I feel there other areas that need work.

the sad part is : this aint an exploit. its a totally legit thing you can just do. it requires knowing where the chests are first of course. so it wont work on a blind run.

but no. the loot system NEEDS an overhaul. it might not be realistic to expect one NOW but it needs a change. the current one is simply garbage. as it discourages active play. thats never good game design.

this is a game about crafting and building. the best stuff should require complex crafting with hard to find materials and not some random bs loot from a boss or chest that is already fully finished. that goes againist the games crafting system as a concept.

Yes I know its not an actual exploit just like reloging isn't one either. The point is if people go through this much just to cheese things they gonna find a way to cheese anyways...its a them and self control problem on their end and not worth the dev time to try and fix.

I have v rising and didnt play it to the end cause I wasn't a fan of the looting and got bored....I don't mind some minor changes but I dont want to have to farm forever in my single player games just to get and use one item in my play through.

Idea for me is that is is a single player game and not a mmo so I don't want mmo ideas in it just to have people "logging in to burn time" for that one rare +100 super sword of dragon slaying.

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by Anima Mundi:

The easiest way to fix this issue is to put all good gear loot on Mobs with RNG instead of chests.

This way people can still farm for better loot, but they will actually be playing the game instead of Reloading simulator. Also getting XP and leveling up so by the time you get a super specific item it might already be too low level.

The system has pros and cons. I also prefer a persistent world, but then there's a lot of #feelsbadman when you keep progressing through levels without getting good gear, or getting gear that's for a totally different class.

A respawning world allows us to farm for gear, but then it also makes completely obsolete and useless 90% of the items in the game.
I have seen a ton of great looking weapons even early game, that will never see any real use (except role play) due to the fact they're too weak and you can just reload to find better.

I like looting system that makes every item feel a bit special, and perhaps a much more rare RNG for gear drops from mobs would make looting exciting again.
At the same time maybe greatly reduce XP gains from same and lower lvl mobs, or just remove it, so that the progression is not so accelerated.
At the moment even mining feels like it gives too much XP. The first char i started for co-op with friends quickly got to Lvl 16 when we were still in lvl ~10 areas, and our lowest guy was lvl 8. This was me actually trying to wait for others for progression, and simply doing mining / revisiting areas we previously cleared.

TL;DR in the current system, no, i don't think chests state should be made persistent, it wouldn't make sense. But perhaps a rework of the gear drop/.loot system that would make all non-meta items feel useful, including crafted gear, would be a better solution.

thats not a fix for anything. people would instead of a chest find the fastest and easiest boss to instant kill. would all respec to mage with acid bite and then reload that boss instead of the chest. the core issue isnt FIXED by that at all. you just prolong the rng grind but dont slove the underlying issues it brings with it : it invalidates the games crafting systems.

[Anima Mundi]

Originally posted by Nerevar:

Originally posted by Anima Mundi:

The easiest way to fix this issue is to put all good gear loot on Mobs with RNG instead of chests.

This way people can still farm for better loot, but they will actually be playing the game instead of Reloading simulator. Also getting XP and leveling up so by the time you get a super specific item it might already be too low level.

The system has pros and cons. I also prefer a persistent world, but then there's a lot of #feelsbadman when you keep progressing through levels without getting good gear, or getting gear that's for a totally different class.

A respawning world allows us to farm for gear, but then it also makes completely obsolete and useless 90% of the items in the game.
I have seen a ton of great looking weapons even early game, that will never see any real use (except role play) due to the fact they're too weak and you can just reload to find better.

I like looting system that makes every item feel a bit special, and perhaps a much more rare RNG for gear drops from mobs would make looting exciting again.
At the same time maybe greatly reduce XP gains from same and lower lvl mobs, or just remove it, so that the progression is not so accelerated.
At the moment even mining feels like it gives too much XP. The first char i started for co-op with friends quickly got to Lvl 16 when we were still in lvl ~10 areas, and our lowest guy was lvl 8. This was me actually trying to wait for others for progression, and simply doing mining / revisiting areas we previously cleared.

TL;DR in the current system, no, i don't think chests state should be made persistent, it wouldn't make sense. But perhaps a rework of the gear drop/.loot system that would make all non-meta items feel useful, including crafted gear, would be a better solution.

thats not a fix for anything. people would instead of a chest find the fastest and easiest boss to instant kill. would all respec to mage with acid bite and then reload that boss instead of the chest. the core issue isnt FIXED by that at all. you just prolong the rng grind but dont slove the underlying issues it brings with it : it invalidates the games crafting systems.

Then it sounds like your issue is only with crafted gear being inferior. I get that, i also like crafting to have meaning, but i dislike if some super legendary thing i find in the world is meaningless compared to what some rude blacksmith back at my base can make. It makes gear drops feel useless then, and there's no excitment to looting.

What i suggest is a balance between the 2. Crafting should be a reliable way to get your gear, and the gear should be pretty much one of the best, but then you'd have some legendary items on a very tiny chance of dropping, that could be superior, or have specific and interesting effects / buffs to them, so at least they feel special and useful .

[Danyel]

To be honest so far the game was fine as is, I played through it without cheesing anything, used the crafter fighter set up the pike then used the cool looking set found in the pike area from chest and used that for the rest of the playthough mostly.

Once I hit lvl cap and finished the content we have right now I got like one piece randomly of radiant paladin so decided to amuse myself farming the rest using the relog method just so I would be good to go with this character when future content drop.

Now I play to build and have a mage run yet to do and on new character which I haven't even made yet cause still building a castle.

[spliff]

lots of valid points in here, but as someone said (don't know if it was in this thread here), people just build a tall tower, equip their lvl30 flying squirrel cloak and glide to an endgame area, where they put down a flame altar and then proceed to loot one of the highest chests in the game right now, like every 7 seconds.

that is crap, even if you tell people "but let me play like i want, you don't have to!". it incentives people to do just that, and ultimately destroy the longevity of the game for them. it's just silly and lame (my opinion), and should have no place in *any* game.

respawnable chests are fine, but not like this.

[Storm Reaver]

The real problem would be RNG generally. Any random loot-box mechanics will cause you to grind tediously to get what you actually want, rather then some useless trinket. If the game had unique equipment in specific locations, then RNG wouldn't be a problem.

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by Anima Mundi:

Originally posted by Nerevar:

as it discourages active play. thats never good game design.

this is a game about crafting and building. the best stuff should require complex crafting with hard to find materials and not some random bs loot from a boss or chest that is already fully finished. that goes againist the games crafting system as a concept.

Oh yea, pretty much my point on your first paragraph there.
About the last part though, no, i don't think crafted stuff should always be better. It should be good, and should be more reliable to make, but a looting system where a super rare drop is better than anything you can craft is always exciting.
But like you said, if a resetting world is gonna be a thing, then Gear farming should have an emphasis on active gameplay - not on loading screens and opening chests

which will never be the case when the rng pool is this gigantic that its completly unrealistic to ever get what you want. especially not when its THIS pointless on top. when dumb luck becomes the only factor if you ever get something in such a game the game isnt exciting. its bad. this discourages actively farming or even playing such games. it doesnt make players play more. this was tryed countless times. it never works unless the game is designed to be a looter shooter or hack and slash like diablo. it wont ever work in this game. period.

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by Anima Mundi:

Originally posted by Nerevar:

thats not a fix for anything. people would instead of a chest find the fastest and easiest boss to instant kill. would all respec to mage with acid bite and then reload that boss instead of the chest. the core issue isnt FIXED by that at all. you just prolong the rng grind but dont slove the underlying issues it brings with it : it invalidates the games crafting systems.

Then it sounds like your issue is only with crafted gear being inferior. I get that, i also like crafting to have meaning, but i dislike if some super legendary thing i find in the world is meaningless compared to what some rude blacksmith back at my base can make. It makes gear drops feel useless then, and there's no excitment to looting.

What i suggest is a balance between the 2. Crafting should be a reliable way to get your gear, and the gear should be pretty much one of the best, but then you'd have some legendary items on a very tiny chance of dropping, that could be superior, or have specific and interesting effects / buffs to them, so at least they feel special and useful .

what you suggested is luck > all concept. this isnt a slot machine. you dont get it. you would make that super legendary ring via finding random rare materials which are rare and hard to get. this way you still have rng at play but the loot table wouldnt be so silly oversized that people would flock to finding the path of least resistence to get to thier goal. an rng table with over 500 items when you get ONE per chest/kill will never be a good system. never. it doesnt work. it kills active play. it will always kill active play. as its grossly over the top in every way.

if you combine random rare crafting materials with the actual crafting you have the rng work together with the crafting system. terraria did this perfectly as an example by makeing certain enemies and bosses drop specific materials or weapons you needed for a much more complex craft to get something even better.

this makes the rng and the crafting work together unlike now where they work againist each other which will always invalidate one of the 2 systems as players will always go for the better stuff out of nature.

the entire random legendary loot nonsense needs to be removed entirely. it goes againist the core concept of this game of craft and build.

placeing fixed loot is even worse since map is fixed. everyone has everything basically instantly with such a system. and then people will quit the game even faster.

you need systems that encourage active play but dont go overboard with the rng nonsense. as makeing a players chances hit UNREALISTIC levels isnt going to make them play more. itll make them quit. if you hand everything over to the player instantly (fixed loot places with 100% chance) theyll also quit the game faster.

neither is a good system if you wanna keep a game alive longterm.

will check back on this game in about 6 months probaly. by then new content and levels should be available and we will see if the devs are atleast trying to address this issue or if it will remove itself due to the progression they have planned for the future. hard to tell with only 28% of the content beeing available yet.

[Danyel]

Originally posted by spliff:

lots of valid points in here, but as someone said (don't know if it was in this thread here), people just build a tall tower, equip their lvl30 flying squirrel cloak and glide to an endgame area, where they put down a flame altar and then proceed to loot one of the highest chests in the game right now, like every 7 seconds.

that is crap, even if you tell people "but let me play like i want, you don't have to!". it incentives people to do just that, and ultimately destroy the longevity of the game for them. it's just silly and lame (my opinion), and should have no place in *any* game.

respawnable chests are fine, but not like this.

Again that is a self made problem of people ruining the game for themselves, its not an issue devs can fix, its a me issue people with low self control have.

You can easily take any single player game download a trainer and voila run through the game with unlimited health or mana etc etc but people don't all do this....this "issue" is quite similar to this IMO.

If people are not going to play the game as intended that on them to reap their joy or lack thereof of their gaming time.

Only way to fix this is to make the game entirely different. Anyways...lol

[M'Hael]

Literally the only way to get gear unless they have enemies start dropping loot...I think Phantoms, the big Berserker guy, and the Matron are like the only mobs that have loot drops. Essentially your world would be dead and you would have to start a new one if chests don't respawn...pretty silly. There isn't any other way to get gear outside of farming chests, I have been farming chests a lot...I am level 25 and there is no point in even killing most the enemies in the game since I cant get xp from them and they don't drop anything...its going to be the exact same problem when they eventually raise the level cap. It's only a problem if you think its a problem, and if you think it is a problem...then don't do it. Personally I would like to see enemies dropping loot because I would rather be killing monsters than clicking chests, but even then chests should always respawn because who cares how other people choose to spend their time in a game like this...