Static map vs. Procedurally gen

[Tanyon]

I have to admit I like the game but I am concerned that it is a static handmade map.

Most games I play are ones that involve survival and base-building the most hours I have are in ones where the map changes which are procedurally generated, it adds life to the game Valheim and 7D2D being my two most played. Sure I have hundreds of hours in ARK, V-Rising and Conan but a lot of that was because when a new expansion drops I play it again. (I have never done any PVP in any survival game that's not my thing)

Once a game with a static map hits 1.0 I feel like you play it once and then boom what? Where is the change of scenery or desire to play again?

I'm not saying I won't get a few hundred hours out of this game, it looks very promising but that could be thousands if there was more flavor.

Just my thoughts. Curious what you guys think.

[ArmoredStone]

Going to revive this dead thread to also request procedural generation. If what you say is true, and it's not difficult to implement, then there is no reason to disappoint your fans by not including it as an option. If you are truly concerned about missing out on the story, make it so the player is required to complete the static map first, then prpcedural generation unlocks for them.

Static maps are fun for one or two playthroughs, but you always end up building in the same place, running the same routes, know where the good stuff is, etc. Replayability is hampered dramatically. There's a reason 7D2D and Minecraft have been so popular, even despite the very infrequent updates. Your game looks fun, but I would hate for it to die after just a couple months because of a lack of replayability. Listen to your playerbase guys.

[Bowa]

Originally posted by ArmoredStone:

Going to revive this dead thread to also request procedural generation. If what you say is true, and it's not difficult to implement, then there is no reason to disappoint your fans by not including it as an option. If you are truly concerned about missing out on the story, make it so the player is required to complete the static map first, then prpcedural generation unlocks for them.

Static maps are fun for one or two playthroughs, but you always end up building in the same place, running the same routes, know where the good stuff is, etc. Replayability is hampered dramatically. There's a reason 7D2D and Minecraft have been so popular, even despite the very infrequent updates. Your game looks fun, but I would hate for it to die after just a couple months because of a lack of replayability. Listen to your playerbase guys.

I think this is very spot on. Procedural generation really increases the lifespan of a game

[Zentun]

I will always prefer "handmade" than "procedural" maps, even so my favorite survival game being Valheim i still prefer it to be "handmade".

[Tanyon]

Originally posted by Zentun:

I will always prefer "handmade" than "procedural" maps, even so my favorite survival game being Valheim i still prefer it to be "handmade". :cozybethesda:

Well they both serve their purpose but MOST static maps that do well do so specifically because of PVP.. if it is a co-op game.. there is only so many times you can do the exact same thing in a linear manner over and over.. V-Rising is a good example.. I play that game ONLY when there is new content because I know exactly where to go, what to do and blow through the content in the same fashion each time.. where in Valheim I have to explore and actually find the things I'm looking for.. it's not just the same exact thing.. same with 7D2D exploration is just as much fun as playing the game.

[Ellis_Cake]

Not all games need to be played forever tho.
a large handmade map that has a story seems to be the kind of thing this game is going for, with light survival and building ontop.
Its what drew me in with the demo, id not want it to be like game x y and z.

[Tanyon]

Originally posted by Ellis_Cake:

Not all games need to be played forever tho.
a large handmade map that has a story seems to be the kind of thing this game is going for, with light survival and building ontop.
Its what drew me in with the demo, id not want it to be like game x y and z.

Story? I literally have no idea what the background is, story, nothing I just play because it has cool mechanics, it has an incredible base-building aspect and I like the boss fights. Nobody said a game needs to be played forever but there is a big difference between getting 60 hours from a game and 600. If you want a story based game then I mean go play that but a crafting, survival, base-building game is not the same as going and playing Baulders Gate or Octopath Traveler.. people don't play these kinds of games for the story. I mean sure there should be a back story but.. this is not like a single player story driven game.

[Ellis_Cake]

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

Originally posted by Ellis_Cake:

Not all games need to be played forever tho.
a large handmade map that has a story seems to be the kind of thing this game is going for, with light survival and building ontop.
Its what drew me in with the demo, id not want it to be like game x y and z.

Story? I literally have no idea what the background is, story, nothing I just play because it has cool mechanics, it has an incredible base-building aspect and I like the boss fights. Nobody said a game needs to be played forever but there is a big difference between getting 60 hours from a game and 600. If you want a story based game then I mean go play that but a crafting, survival, base-building game is not the same as going and playing Baulders Gate or Octopath Traveler.. people don't play these kinds of games for the story. I mean sure there should be a back story but.. this is not like a single player story driven game.

The _devs_ themselves explain that they are creating a handcrafted map with a story.

"Go play something else if you want story"; when this IS a game with a story. *smh* ^^

[Tanyon]

Originally posted by Ellis_Cake:

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

Story? I literally have no idea what the background is, story, nothing I just play because it has cool mechanics, it has an incredible base-building aspect and I like the boss fights. Nobody said a game needs to be played forever but there is a big difference between getting 60 hours from a game and 600. If you want a story based game then I mean go play that but a crafting, survival, base-building game is not the same as going and playing Baulders Gate or Octopath Traveler.. people don't play these kinds of games for the story. I mean sure there should be a back story but.. this is not like a single player story driven game.

The _devs_ themselves explain that they are creating a handcrafted map with a story.

"Go play something else if you want story"; when this IS a game with a story. *smh* ^^

OK look I'm not going to go back and fourth with you all day but do you play survival, base-building, crafting games at all? Valheim, ARK, 7D2D, Conan Exiles, V-Rising? ALL of those games have stories.. all of them and nobody cares. People do not play this genre of game for a story and while the devs may have said that this was a game with a "hand crafted map and story" that doesn't mean ♥♥♥♥. I'll post their FULL description they mention at the VERY end about "unlocking the secrets" of Embervale and even this section there is a teeny tiny mention of a story. So believe what you want.

ABOUT THIS GAME
The realm of Embervale is lost. In their greed for magical power, your ancestors unleashed a pestilence that consumed the world.

Enshrouded is a game of survival, crafting, and Action RPG combat, set within a sprawling voxel-based continent. As you journey across the mountains and deserts of an open world, you are free to choose your path and shape your destiny.

Ignite the Ancient power of the Flame, and piece together the fragments of a story that unfolds below the surface.

SURVIVE THE SHROUD
You start with nothing but the will to survive the wilds. You must scrape and scavenge through the ruined remnants of a lost kingdom, and fend off the beasts that hunger for your flesh.

Journey through forests, caves, dungeons, searching for secret knowledge and treasure. Build the strength to venture into the Shroud and bring the fight back to the horrors of the deep.

HEART POUNDING ACTION COMBAT
The Shroud consumes the land it corrupts, mutating and guiding all life it encounters. Cleave your way through ravaging factions and formidable bosses, battling Scavenger in the forests, Vukah in the caves, and Fell creatures in the mist.

Duck, parry, and surprise your foes with unexpected fighting skills and powerful spells. Exploit the weaknesses of your enemies as you develop your own unique playstyle with an in-depth skill tree system.

CREATE EPIC BUILDS
Bring life back to the land! Voxel-based building unleashes your creative vision, allowing you to create grand architecture on an epic scale, customized with a vast assortment of materials and furniture. Build not only for yourself, because NPCs will take refuge within your walls, unlocking advanced workshops and the ability to craft epic weapons and armor.

CRAFT GEAR WORTHY OF LEGEND
Craft and customize a staggering array of legendary weapons and armor to become a force to be reckoned with. You'll need to master the shield, the sword, the staff and the bow to withstand the merciless advance of the Shroud.

CALL UPON YOUR ALLIES
Join with friends in 16 player co-op gameplay. Carve out unique roles and complimentary skills that will prove your worth in battle as together you raid, gather treasure, and overcome the Fell hordes that ravage the land.

UNLOCK THE SECRETS OF A FALLEN REALM
Journey through the biomes of Embervale to immerse yourself in vibrant fallen cultures and ancient myths, from the mystical desert of the Kindlewastes to the dark canopies of The Revelwood.

Within the fog, and beneath the ruins of a lost kingdom lies an ever-unfolding story of magic, ruin, hope, and redemption waiting to be discovered.


^^^ one little tidbit about story after the other 5 headlines lol

[Azrapse]

I completely understand why some people would like a procedurally generated world.

If the devs can give the choice to start a new game in a procedurally generated world, perhaps they should do it.
The problem is that creating an algorithm that creates a good-looking procedurally generated world that:
- Doesn't look ugly (The procedurally generated worlds in 7DtD are, for example, hideous)
- Doesn't rend exploration pointless (In Valheim you should just travel radially from the starting point to the edge of the map, because the entire world is just more of the same, based on distance from the center)
- Allows for puzzles (some of the most surprising and best content in Enshrouded is in the towers, which act as Zelda-like dungeons with puzzles to overcome to progress)

...is extremely difficult, expensive, time consuming, or perhaps even impossible with the resources the studio has.

And experience tells that if you give the option to uninformed players between choosing a fix world and a random world, the majority will choose a random world because it sounds like it will be more "unique", when in reality, the world will be just samey, derivative, bland, and without any smart puzzles, and the places will have no personality or feel "lived in".

That is why I suggested that, instead, they allowed for Steam workshop maps. So that people could either create entire new maps hand crafted, and share them, or create entirely random maps with the editor and share them.
With that, most people would then first play the official hand-crafted map, and get the best impression possible from the game. Then, if they want to play more, they would find additional handcrafted or random maps.

[Palicai]

Skyrim was handmade and released in 2011, a handmade map certainly works as its still one of the most played RPG's...and most modded.

I'd prefer it to stay handcrafted thanks, atleast the world makes sense. Procedural is a gimmick in most games imo, even Valheim would be just fine using a large handcrafted world, hell i'd say it would be better as most places in that game is just large open areas with nothing of interest.

[Palicai]

Originally posted by Bowa:

Originally posted by ArmoredStone:

Going to revive this dead thread to also request procedural generation. If what you say is true, and it's not difficult to implement, then there is no reason to disappoint your fans by not including it as an option. If you are truly concerned about missing out on the story, make it so the player is required to complete the static map first, then prpcedural generation unlocks for them.

Static maps are fun for one or two playthroughs, but you always end up building in the same place, running the same routes, know where the good stuff is, etc. Replayability is hampered dramatically. There's a reason 7D2D and Minecraft have been so popular, even despite the very infrequent updates. Your game looks fun, but I would hate for it to die after just a couple months because of a lack of replayability. Listen to your playerbase guys.

I think this is very spot on. Procedural generation really increases the lifespan of a game

That is all just your opinion man, and nothing more. This game will do just fine, and you WILL buy it, and most likely enjoy it.

Im the playerbase too, and i want handcrafted.

[Damocles]

Even if you dont want to create a map generator, there is one thing you can do: allow modders to make a custom map generator.
This comes down to have the map data in a way an experienced modder can alter it or generate a new map. (not an obfuscated format).

7 Days to Die had a reasonably understandable map format, and allowed external generators (NitroGen, and others later) to make new maps. Ultimately that pushed the quality of the build in map generator, which was quite lacking for a long time.

It is a big deal for the longevity of the game. As players can customize the gameworld the way they like it for their group.
7 Days to Die is a pretty popular game now. I doubt it would be the same if everyone would have to play the (handcrafted) default map again and again.

The gameworld does not need to come completely out of a generator, but could be based on a Slot->POI system. Where regions of the premade world a marked with a slot-type (small, large, mountaintop, cliffside etc), and a premade POI is placed there out of a random bag of prefabs that fit this slottype and topology. (chosen so POIs dont repeat if possible). Those enshrouded areas could be active or not. Player buildsides active or not.
Some paths could be blocked off or open.

Inside the POIs, the placement of lootchests and enemyspawns could have random variations. Spawned loot and enemies are adjusted to the local "level region" or the world.
The general structure of the map: paths, mountains, cliffs etc and core story locations are still static and handmade. But the gameworld is unique in its gameplay flow.

And this system is pretty scalable and extendable: from a few changes to a lot of possible changes to the gameworld.

[A-Space-Turkey]

Originally posted by info:

Originally posted by Toast:

Hi there! Because our game is a highly detailed voxel based world, and has a strong emphasis on story and exploration, we decided that a pre-built world would be the better option for our game. This wasn't done out of laziness or because procedural generation would be too hard, but rather that procedural generated worlds inherently come with a pretty strong lack of structure. They will always inherently be less detailed and coherent than a hand built world, which would have made it pretty much impossible to actually achieve a level of story telling and world building that we wanted to do with our game.

There's definitely upsides to both systems, but because many survival games already use procedural worlds we wanted to do something different. We are definitely aware of concerns players have for replayability, but rest assured we have a lot planned to make sure our game is rich with content and can be played for a very long time :)

the world design is amazing. I have only praise for basically anything in this game, UI, combat, graphics, .....

but you can't call yourself exploration focused if you take away loot that dropped if someone dies.
it leads to people playing super safe and not going into areas until they can steamroll the content. thus creating a boring build up to a "safe state" and then a boring steam rolling of the area in question.

I know how this works, cause I play like that. and I will always downvote games that make me play like that.
loot despawning and (corpse runs) is something from an era when there was exactly ONE game that came out and was talked about.

it wasn't a feature people liked, it was tied to the extremely few games that came out and occupied people's time. now I can simply decide not to play crap like this because my time is more valuable.

it's just as much an anti-feature as the crap other games do, but yours thanksfully not. like non-rebindable keys, lacking mouse support or denuvo

I am in awe how well you let people rebind keys. it's so well done. I can just do 2 button combos, even with mouse and keyboard mixed??? that is amazing!
you do everything right. but then you don't let me explore cause I may get into a fight with too many guys and even if I barely win, the loss of loot that I already earned would bug me so much, I'd quit the game. never take something away from people. it's such a basic rule of game design.

if you want to cater to people who like that, make it an option. but if I see a loot bundle on the ground, it better be there for a good long while.

this isn't an MMO in the 90s that can't handle too many items on the ground because computers only had 8 Megabytes of RAM.
this is 2023. there is no technical reason. this is simply a middle finger to the customer

No. Your time is not valuable. You are playing a video game; a pass-time. You are playing it to have fun. You are not "investing" time. You are not anything. This game is not about you. It was not made for you. It was just made. If you don't like that, tough. Play it or don't, nobody cares.

[Wintermuet]

Originally posted by Elden:

Originally posted by Bowa:

I think this is very spot on. Procedural generation really increases the lifespan of a game

That is all just your opinion man, and nothing more. This game will do just fine, and you WILL buy it, and most likely enjoy it.

Im the playerbase too, and i want handcrafted.

I'm specifically skipping this game because it's *not* procedurally generated. In fact, the majority of people that will skip this game over this issue will not post in this steam forum at all, so you'll get an unrepresentative bias towards people that don't mind that different on here. But overall, a lot of people do care about this and will skip it as a result.

I do like games with handcrafted worlds, but that's because sometimes those games play or look like Zelda or a FromSoftware game. Beautiful map design. If the map design FEELS like procedural generation but ISN'T procedurally generated (see: Skyrim, technically a mix between procedural generation and then hand modeled) then it's the worst of both worlds. Tragically, despite all the other positives of this game, this one appears to fall into the category of looking procedurally generated but not actually being such. It's a bit tragic, but that's okay, there will be other games after I skip this one that will do the things I want in a game. :)

The expectations for hand crafted worlds is extremely high, if it is hand crafted it better have great level design; otherwise you're better off with generated worlds that create endless new playthroughs. This game appears to have neither, it is taking the tragic and outdated Skyrim approach.

[info]

Originally posted by Wintermuet:

Originally posted by Elden:

That is all just your opinion man, and nothing more. This game will do just fine, and you WILL buy it, and most likely enjoy it.

Im the playerbase too, and i want handcrafted.

I'm specifically skipping this game because it's *not* procedurally generated. In fact, the majority of people that will skip this game over this issue will not post in this steam forum at all, so you'll get an unrepresentative bias towards people that don't mind that different on here. But overall, a lot of people do care about this and will skip it as a result.

I do like games with handcrafted worlds, but that's because sometimes those games play or look like Zelda or a FromSoftware game. Beautiful map design. If the map design FEELS like procedural generation but ISN'T procedurally generated (see: Skyrim, technically a mix between procedural generation and then hand modeled) then it's the worst of both worlds. Tragically, despite all the other positives of this game, this one appears to fall into the category of looking procedurally generated but not actually being such. It's a bit tragic, but that's okay, there will be other games after I skip this one that will do the things I want in a game. :)

The expectations for hand crafted worlds is extremely high, if it is hand crafted it better have great level design; otherwise you're better off with generated worlds that create endless new playthroughs. This game appears to have neither, it is taking the tragic and outdated Skyrim approach.

it's a voxel based engine, i.e. 3 dimensional pixels.
not standard Unreal or Unity. you can do a lot more in this game since everything is substance to it.
not just a surface.

when you dig into a wall, you dig into that wall. or into the ground. and it's not done with tricks, it's essential to the engine.
i.e. everything (99%) is destructable and you can get a lot better feel for the world when you interact with it.

this isn't yet another survival game based on unreal 4 with standard assets like we've seen 5000 times by now