Territory Mode - Where's the fun?

[Kreed]

Hi everyone,
now that have your attention with that clickbait headline please help me understand how you have fun with the new mode (in the current state).

I might be the only one maybe not but after playing, or at least trying to play, five missions of the new territory beta i must ask when the fun should start.
Don't get me wrong i enjoyed most of the main campaign mission which i finished on normal without any issues and i know the new mode is in beta but some design decisions when it comes to enemies and most important map layout are just killing any fun for me.

I am for sure not a fast player when it comes to multitasking and click rate so i mostly enjoyed the campaign mission that allowed me to set up one stronghold and then push on one or two lanes, micro manage my units and making the most out of each units skills. Thats also when the campaign for me lost a bit the Starship troopers feeling as the plasma bugs start showing up (in large numbers) and wasting your entire army, that you then need to rebuild and send it to the front as a doomblob. Nothing remains from the slow and steady gameplay of the first 75% of the campaign.

Now looking at the map layouts for the territory map i see (for my taste) way to many angles and paths enemies can move. After taking ~30-50% of the map i am just to far spread out to babysit all of my units, which would be ok if the towers would be worth anything. Even with 5 or more towers, my strongholds fall like papertowers due to long range units or them falling apart from the very first bug squad hitting them. In the end they require way more babysitting as my main army (if they hold the line at all).
'We are getting attacked' pings do not help either as my men and women are always fighting somewhere on the map.
And thats the time where my mission normally ends. I can now decide to move my army, gain back the that lost stronghold, leaving on side of the map open, which is then immidiatly taken by enemy forces, or ignore it and loose more supply points in my back.

On top comes the number of enemy types. Spitters are easy to counter with snipers put on priority targeting but once hoppers show up it gets messy. Idealy i build MK.II troopers and use their abilities however that brings me back to the above mentioned micro management.
Anything beyond hoppers mostly end up in a total army wipe...

Therefore I would love to see these changes:
- map layout: Reduce the number of corridors. Not asking for a lane system aka dota but having rather open areas with a bottle neck on each side. Allwoing me to fortify and move my focus to another area on the map.
- buff towers: Setting up a high number of towers must be enought to hold back enemies. This includes options that do not get outranged (for a hefty price for sure) and do not overheat by shooting 4 baseline bugs
- SHIFT orders!: Allow me to queue orders such as repair 4 towers in a row. This is RTS standard. I realy wonder how this did not make it into the game.

[Aedwynn]

Agree, the moment you start capturing territory, game changes into micromanagement hell.
Turrets feel very lacking as bugs either overheat them in 2 seconds, or gun them down without retaliation. You need 3-4 turrets + engineer just to hold one spot. That's basically one base slot worth of turrets!
Taking terrritories in the open is just pointless - you simply have no means to hold them.

[Killersnipe]

I see the long term appeal of the mode in theory. Unlike the heavily scripted story missions, it offers maps that have multiple ways to approach them and then when they add the different troop sets, you also get to play them with different kinds of troop loadouts. However, the balance is still off and some of the early maps have just random capture points that are not placed in a way that they are practical to defend (I think the new maps like the one on Gahenna improved this with more defensible spots near to the capture points). I think I could see myself playing this mode if they can fix balancing and add more content and maybe some sort of larger randomization factor to the missions. Right now, I just play so that I can try to give helpful feedback for future improvements

[A.L.E.X.]

Agree with the OP in many points. Too much micro management, and I do like to micro-manage my units, but since towers are not strong and my units get attacked from many sides, it becomes "not fun to me" to just micro manage for the sake of "oh, I forgot to use this ability to save my unit". Making it harder is not the issue, hard is ok, but lose 20 minutes just trying to hit the right button at the right time is not really fun =/ (and I cannot save in game, not sure if it will be like this, but people who wants to go just a bit slower will have a hard time here).

[Stevie Lee]

Seems like adding the ability to terraform / add obstacles, walls, etc. like in the editor, would both add a new dimension of fun and mitigate the problem with defensible positions. Maybe have a limited selection of barriers / gates with a resource cost for each?

[Kaiser Williams]

What kind of turrets are you building and what maps are you playing? The only map where turrets become largely useless without infantry unit support is Mahanagar, since you'll end up facing ravagers there. 4 turrets at chokepoints late-game can hold off most things if occasionally repaired by technicians (don't use engineers for that, they cost too much pop).

A good mix of turrets is your friend. Also never get the armor piercing upgrade on the basic turrets. Better armor is the only viable choice, since they can tank almost everything except for enraged ravagers. The others are going to depend on what you're facing: MG towers early on and against spitters, mortars (with AA upgrade) if you're facing hoppers, and cannons to deal with the heavy late game bugs. Again, basic turrets with armor are key here: You need something to tank the shots from the heavy stuff while your glass cannons bring the DPS.

[SoPP]

Just wanted to add to what everyone is saying, as it seems were on the same page.

I enjoy the initial phase of pushing and holding areas, but then there's a point where the micromanagement feels overwhelming and I found myself not having fun and just turning it off, even on the low settings.

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by Kaiser Williams:

What kind of turrets are you building and what maps are you playing? The only map where turrets become largely useless without infantry unit support is Mahanagar, since you'll end up facing ravagers there. 4 turrets at chokepoints late-game can hold off most things if occasionally repaired by technicians (don't use engineers for that, they cost too much pop).

A good mix of turrets is your friend. Also never get the armor piercing upgrade on the basic turrets. Better armor is the only viable choice, since they can tank almost everything except for enraged ravagers. The others are going to depend on what you're facing: MG towers early on and against spitters, mortars (with AA upgrade) if you're facing hoppers, and cannons to deal with the heavy late game bugs. Again, basic turrets with armor are key here: You need something to tank the shots from the heavy stuff while your glass cannons bring the DPS.

That's exactly what I do, Start with Basic Turret + armor upgrade, Then MG turret + range upgrade to counter spitters for example. Or Mortar as you mentioned if I face other threats.

But there are few problems involved.
Time&Price - setting up two turret spot costs 400-600? resources + a lot of time as building and upgrading are slow and require infantry babysitting through that stage.
Overheat - a regular, not late game wave easily overheats two-turret combo. By the time spitters start appearing two-turret combo will always take damage from each wave. MG will start firing first at regular bugs (due to range) and overheat by the time spitters arrive. Eventually they will wipe out the wave, but take noticeable damage in the process. Means you need to check them up regularly, as it takes just a couple of minutes left unattended for enemies to break them. That already turns game in a micro hell. If you want to actually repair them "occasionally", you need 3 turrets at least. If we take first map as example, and you spend half slots on turrets you have a pool of ~120 ,that's just two 3 turret spots (that you really don't need to look for that often) + one 2-turret spot that depending on it's location you have to monitor closely. You need at least 2 spots to cover your base which leave you with just one spot worth of defense for anything else. Naturally, it goes to the first bug hole you clear - you need to defend it or bugs will take it back. Only then you have room to push to third base.
You might ask, so what's the problem?
Problem one - 4 territory control spots outside base basically uncapturable. You have no free troops or turrets to defend them. So, what's their purpose? It's game design problem.
Problem two - that's just defending against regular bugs + spitters/hoppers, may be flyers.
The moment Tiger bugs (or plasma bugs) start showing up the two-turret combo can't keep up and require maintenance after each enemy wave and probably an infantry squad to clear out plasma threat. Three turret combo doesn't fare all that better, you now also need to check them up regularly. But you have no resources to actually automate defense on all avenues of attack and micro hell begins.

[Kaiser Williams]

Originally posted by Aedwynn:

That's exactly what I do, Start with Basic Turret + armor upgrade, Then MG turret + range upgrade to counter spitters for example. Or Mortar as you mentioned if I face other threats.

But there are few problems involved.
Time&Price - setting up two turret spot costs 400-600? resources + a lot of time as building and upgrading are slow and require infantry babysitting through that stage.
Overheat - a regular, not late game wave easily overheats two-turret combo. By the time spitters start appearing two-turret combo will always take damage from each wave. MG will start firing first at regular bugs (due to range) and overheat by the time spitters arrive. Eventually they will wipe out the wave, but take noticeable damage in the process. Means you need to check them up regularly, as it takes just a couple of minutes left unattended for enemies to break them. That already turns game in a micro hell. If you want to actually repair them "occasionally", you need 3 turrets at least. If we take first map as example, and you spend half slots on turrets you have a pool of ~120 ,that's just two 3 turret spots (that you really don't need to look for that often) + one 2-turret spot that depending on it's location you have to monitor closely. You need at least 2 spots to cover your base which leave you with just one spot worth of defense for anything else. Naturally, it goes to the first bug hole you clear - you need to defend it or bugs will take it back. Only then you have room to push to third base.
You might ask, so what's the problem?
Problem one - 4 territory control spots outside base basically uncapturable. You have no free troops or turrets to defend them. So, what's their purpose? It's game design problem.
Problem two - that's just defending against regular bugs + spitters/hoppers, may be flyers.
The moment Tiger bugs (or plasma bugs) start showing up the two-turret combo can't keep up and require maintenance after each enemy wave and probably an infantry squad to clear out plasma threat. Three turret combo doesn't fare all that better, you now also need to check them up regularly. But you have no resources to actually automate defense on all avenues of attack and micro hell begins.

You don't really need two turrets in the early game. One basic turret and one to two MG towers at a chokepoint is generally all you need. It kinda depends on the map. I'm not sure where the significant damage comes from. Early bugs struggle to damage turrets with the armor upgrade.

So what I usually do is build a turret and MG tower on one side of my base and push on the other with my soldiers. I don't build new turrets until I need to temporarily cover a flank or get to a new chokepoint that protects multiple territory points at once. Disband turrets you don't need. I don't usually have a big army for starters: Just two rifle units and a technician, adding the rifle upgrade, a combat engineer, and a radio troop as I progress. Snipers if I'm facing spitters or bombadiers. Rush to get a grinder if hoppers are on the horizon. Remember to use prioritization.

It's also important to get a war support point by the time the medium tier bugs roll out. Hoppers and other air units require a grinder to effectively fight and the cannons are needed for the heavy stuff. Activating a bug retaliation early is also more mangageable than later: Two rifle squads can handle the waves from two to three territory points.

Overall, you need to plan ahead. Pick a path that can be defended with minimal amounts of turrets and that gives you war support and a new base with new slots for supplies and materiel. Then push along that with soldiers and have turrets defend the flanks.

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by Kaiser Williams:

You don't really need two turrets in the early game. One basic turret and one to two MG towers at a chokepoint is generally all you need.

MG Tower is also a "turret", so it's exactly as I said - you need 2-3 Turrets even in early game. All my examples are basic turret + MG tower / Mortar depending on who shows up.

Originally posted by Kaiser Williams:

It kinda depends on the map. I'm not sure where the significant damage comes from. Early bugs struggle to damage turrets with the armor upgrade.

Basically it's Spitters. I detailed how that happens.

Originally posted by Kaiser Williams:

So what I usually do is build a turret and MG tower on one side of my base and push on the other with my soldiers. I don't build new turrets until I need to temporarily cover a flank or get to a new chokepoint that protects multiple territory points at once. Disband turrets you don't need. I don't usually have a big army for starters: Just two rifle units and a technician, adding the rifle upgrade, a combat engineer, and a radio troop as I progress. Snipers if I'm facing spitters or bombadiers. Rush to get a grinder if hoppers are on the horizon. Remember to use prioritization.

I do all that, and I can progress - but there is too much micro involved. Basically I must oversee every chokepoint, every unit once in 1-2 minutes or some trouble will happen. That defeats the purpose of setting up turrets. Too much time taken from making a push on enemy. All of that because turrets are lacking and require too much attention.

Originally posted by Kaiser Williams:

It's also important to get a war support point by the time the medium tier bugs roll out. Hoppers and other air units require a grinder to effectively fight and the cannons are needed for the heavy stuff. Activating a bug retaliation early is also more mangageable than later: Two rifle squads can handle the waves from two to three territory points.

Overall, you need to plan ahead. Pick a path that can be defended with minimal amounts of turrets and that gives you war support and a new base with new slots for supplies and materiel. Then push along that with soldiers and have turrets defend the flanks.

I understand all that and doing basically exactly what you said. The problem as I said many times over is that it is not fun to play that way, too much micro involved. Game becomes stressful, not fun.
Not to mention that there are design problems. First map - there is no meaning in 4 capture points outside base. You have no means to hold them, you will be pushing at a very different route, by the edge of map to close the holes located there. By the time you have options to hold them - you don't neeed them.
If we are given so little resources, then it would be better to set those points along the lanes player will attack. Otherwise they are just unneeded.

[Cavemanner]

I gotta agree. I am not a competitive RTS player by any means, so I generally enjoy the dynamic that single-player modes usually give you where you can take your time to build up early on if you want. But the system they currently have with the constantly advancing timer is killing my enjoyment of the mode. The general idea of what they are trying to do with it is awesome in theory, but getting constantly bumrushed by bugs and then getting hit by Tankers before I have had any opportunity to even upgrade my battle tier to unlock counters is not fun. Not to mention having to babysit cleared hives so they aren't re-infested, thereby taking away resources that could be allocated towards pushing the next hive. How about instead of constantly sending waves of Chariots they instead automatically upgrade the level of any remaining hives once you've cleared one, and maybe send Chariots out as an occasional event?

[MeToLee]

Turrets restrictions seems a bit harsh compared to how many things we need to contend with.

[Kaiser Williams]

Originally posted by Cavemanner:

I gotta agree. I am not a competitive RTS player by any means, so I generally enjoy the dynamic that single-player modes usually give you where you can take your time to build up early on if you want. But the system they currently have with the constantly advancing timer is killing my enjoyment of the mode. The general idea of what they are trying to do with it is awesome in theory, but getting constantly bumrushed by bugs and then getting hit by Tankers before I have had any opportunity to even upgrade my battle tier to unlock counters is not fun. Not to mention having to babysit cleared hives so they aren't re-infested, thereby taking away resources that could be allocated towards pushing the next hive. How about instead of constantly sending waves of Chariots they instead automatically upgrade the level of any remaining hives once you've cleared one, and maybe send Chariots out as an occasional event?

The main issue with not having a timer is that there's no longer a point to taking territory. In fact, taking territory becomes a negative. I don't see an issue with a sandbox mode where the escalation meter is static unless territory is taken, but the gamemode is fundamentally broken if it doesn't move on its own.

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by Kaiser Williams:

The main issue with not having a timer is that there's no longer a point to taking territory. In fact, taking territory becomes a negative. I don't see an issue with a sandbox mode where the escalation meter is static unless territory is taken, but the gamemode is fundamentally broken if it doesn't move on its own.

There was no timer in first place. The lack of reason to capture territory was a design problem from the start. You among others suggested the "timer". That maybe improved the game for you but broke it again for others. There is still no point in taking some territory as it can not be defended and you gain very little. So the core problem remains, but now player is forced to play agressively from the start out of fear of falling back and missing the timer.
That heavily restricts gameplay and deducts from replayability that should be Territory mode's core feature. Better find a different solution rather than a half-baked one that suits your taste, but not taste of others.

[Pokemastuh]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I like the take and hold gameplay. I'm a slow-moving defensive player, so I love pushing up, taking territory, then built turrets to hold the line. I imagine the other factions will be less turret focused, so we'll see how that plays out.

[Killersnipe]

Originally posted by Kaiser Williams:

Originally posted by Cavemanner:

I gotta agree. I am not a competitive RTS player by any means, so I generally enjoy the dynamic that single-player modes usually give you where you can take your time to build up early on if you want. But the system they currently have with the constantly advancing timer is killing my enjoyment of the mode. The general idea of what they are trying to do with it is awesome in theory, but getting constantly bumrushed by bugs and then getting hit by Tankers before I have had any opportunity to even upgrade my battle tier to unlock counters is not fun. Not to mention having to babysit cleared hives so they aren't re-infested, thereby taking away resources that could be allocated towards pushing the next hive. How about instead of constantly sending waves of Chariots they instead automatically upgrade the level of any remaining hives once you've cleared one, and maybe send Chariots out as an occasional event?

The main issue with not having a timer is that there's no longer a point to taking territory. In fact, taking territory becomes a negative. I don't see an issue with a sandbox mode where the escalation meter is static unless territory is taken, but the gamemode is fundamentally broken if it doesn't move on its own.

I agree with Cavemanner and Aedwynn. I really dislike the constantly ticking threat meter they added. It makes the entire game more stressful and not fun for me personally. It also makes it so there is only one way to play, aggressive rush style. Part of the initial appeal of the mode seemed to be strategy, but this goes away when you have an artificial timer placed on every game.

Also, it is not true that this is necessary to make taking territory impactful. First off, I would argue it doesn't make it anymore impactful. Since you are against the clock to take hives before big bugs come out, you don't really have any additional incentive to take additional capture points. You basically just want to rush the hives with early troopers and taking additional territory seems to just give you less defensible locations you will later have to defend against tankers etc. And I have already given the devs feedback on an alternative way to make territory capture points impactful without using a timer. If you simply make a resource cap and link that cap to how many territories you control then that would incentivize you to take more territories if you want to get more advanced units and upgrades