Anyone here think the Grand Master is Aidios?

[Yui Yuigahama]

Just finished this amazing game and after seeing the Grand Master she look like someone I would expect Aidios to look like thoughts?

[xHans]

That's what all the evidence is pointing out to. That and the fact that she can grant other worldly items to people like mcBurns.

It can also be someone from the very first game in trails in the sky because usually in mistery novels the bad guy shows up at the very beginning.

We will never know until Falcom decides to stop milking the fanbase.

[Barefoot]

50/50 for me only reason i say that is cause of rose the kin of fire, she mentions something about her previous master just vanishing after she turned over the her responsibility to her, reason for that is look how Vita is so loyal to her ya know makes ya think

im kinda on the edge there

[Velorien]

Originally posted by Barefoot:

50/50 for me only reason i say that is cause of rose the kin of fire, she mentions something about her previous master just vanishing after she turned over the her responsibility to her, reason for that is look how Vita is so loyal to her ya know makes ya think

im kinda on the edge there

Rose is very confident that her predecessor was murdered by the Gnomes, though.

As for her being Aidios, that seems increasingly plausible, especially when we consider what Campanella tells us in the endgame. Aidios gave humanity the Sept-Terrions, and now we learn that the Grandmaster's objective is to see what humanity does with them. Also, the mention of this being a "possible world" is definitely something you'd expect to hear from someone from outside Zemuria, which Aidios would have to be if she created it.

Come to think of it, there's a piece of evidence against the Grandmaster being Aidios in Sky SC of all places. Given that the Divine Beasts are all allies/servants of Aidios, it would be odd for Aidios to sign off on mind control experiments on one the way the Grandmaster does, especially if it causes the Divine Beast to interfere with humanity (which goes against the pact).

[Stabbey]

I don't think it's Aidios, for a few reasons.

The most important is because the reason for a surprise twist reveal like that it usually lands with a shock for the player because there tends to be some personal connection with characters. Aidios isn't really much of a character. No one has actually met her or had a conversation with her. It seems like it might be a shocking twist, but would you really care? In terms of a personal connection, what's the difference between Aidios as the Grandmaster, and some total stranger never mentioned before as the Grandmaster? Not a whole lot.

Secondly, Aidios as the Grandmaster would mean that the Church of Aidios, which is dedicated to Aidios, is fighting Ouroboros, which is working for Aidios. Now, that is not out of the possibility, given all the stupid contradictory nonsense Ouroboros gets up to all the time, but it seems kinda stupid to have what would seem to be two branches of the same faction dedicated to fighting each other. Just about everything that IS known about Aidios comes from what the Church says. If the GM was Aidios, then the entire conception of what Aidios is would seem to be wrong, and Aidios as GM would be little different than a brand-new stranger as GM.

[Velorien]

Originally posted by Stabbey:

I don't think it's Aidios, for a few reasons.

The most important is because the reason for a surprise twist reveal like that it usually lands with a shock for the player because there tends to be some personal connection with characters. Aidios isn't really much of a character. No one has actually met her or had a conversation with her. It seems like it might be a shocking twist, but would you really care? In terms of a personal connection, what's the difference between Aidios as the Grandmaster, and some total stranger never mentioned before as the Grandmaster? Not a whole lot.

Secondly, Aidios as the Grandmaster would mean that the Church of Aidios, which is dedicated to Aidios, is fighting Ouroboros, which is working for Aidios. Now, that is not out of the possibility, given all the stupid contradictory nonsense Ouroboros gets up to all the time, but it seems kinda stupid to have what would seem to be two branches of the same faction dedicated to fighting each other. Just about everything that IS known about Aidios comes from what the Church says. If the GM was Aidios, then the entire conception of what Aidios is would seem to be wrong, and Aidios as GM would be little different than a brand-new stranger as GM.

I see where you're coming from, but there's more than one kind of impact a surprise twist can have. This wouldn't be a "this character we know has a dark and terrible secret" twist. It would be a "the setting is not what we believed it was" twist, like finding out that Fie's dad is back from the dead. We don't need a connection with him for that; we just need his death to be a meaningful fact so that having it undone is also meaningful.

The Church's beliefs about Aidios are meaningful because they are not merely proven wrong if she is the Grandmaster. They are proven wrong in interesting ways. Aidios created the world apparently out of the goodness of her heart. The Grandmaster has a purpose for the world and is apparently willing to see it destroyed in the process. Aidios gave humanity the Sept-Terrions as gifts. The Grandmaster is observing what humanity does with them as an experiment, even if the outcome is harmful. Aidios is the heavenly sky goddess. The Grandmaster implicitly comes from the vaguely demonic Outside. The Church's beliefs are not unrelated to reality, which would make the revelation of Aidios's true nature uninteresting. Rather, such a revelation would invert them in a variety of ways and raise new questions.

With regard to Ouroboros's stupid contradictory nonsense, note that Campanella essentially confirms Musse's guess that the Grandmaster is running an experiment on the Enforcers and Anguis, meaning she has an additional unknown objective completely separate from "accomplish the latest master plan in an effective way".

[Stabbey]

CS 4 already did a lot of "the world is not what you think it is" stuff towards the end of the game, and some nudges and hints in that direction, and I found it very jarring to learn such things as no one can get far away from the continent. What. How is that the first that we're hearing about this 9 games into the series? How would they know what a continent was then? Wouldn't it just be "the land", or "all there is"?. I don't have faith in the writers to handle more M. Night Shyamalan Twists in a good way, and here's why:

Completely out of nowhere - with no foreshadowing and no mentions - CS 4 introduced reincarnation of souls as an actually canon thing which happens. I say that this was poorly handled because the writers clearly have absolutely zero intention of answering any key questions about that. I say that because absolutely ZERO of the characters who learned about that asked any questions about this sudden reveal of a change in understanding about how the world works. I can think of lots, starting with "what the f does it actually mean to be the reincarnation of a soul?" It's just really blatant that the writers are not willing or able to explore the actual concept, they're just tossing it out there and hoping that the players eyes are glazed over and they'll just nod and move along.

So far Ouroboros and the Grandmaster have been tiresome, "ha ha, everything has gone exactly as I predicted" villains.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by Stabbey:

Completely out of nowhere - with no foreshadowing and no mentions - CS 4 introduced reincarnation of souls as an actually canon thing which happens. I say that this was poorly handled because the writers clearly have absolutely zero intention of answering any key questions about that.

Actually this was foreshadowed even in CS1 when Lianne saved Class VII from the Nosferatu and all the cutscenes about her and Drechaels. It was already strongly hinted that she had ties with Rean and at that time I thought he was the reincarnation.

That being said, the "world" thing did come out of nowhere, especially in all the previous games there was talk about the "East" slowly undergoing desertification, implying a much wider and unrestricted world and all of a sudden, *BAM*, nope, you got a force field not letting them go further.

I'm not really sure if the Sept-Terrions were really given out of a sick sense to experiment though, in Sky, the term for Sept-Terrions was "Gifts that were given too early" and from what we know of them, that description was very right. Liberl became indolent and almost died out from the "gift" while Erebonia started using theirs as war machines and ruined both of them. My gut call is that Aidios is using Ouroboros to take back these "gifts given too early" until mankind can grow up a bit more.

Plot Twist: Aidios is actually Elise!

PS: Wait, I think I finally figured out Ouroboros. Yes it is a test, if the Sept-Terrions are gifts that were to be given out again when Mankind finally matures, then Ouroboros might be the canary in the mines, the test to see that if humans devolved right down to their basest darkest nature, will they still abuse the power of the Sept-Terrions? Hence why all the Enforcers are chosen with darkness in their hearts and given free rein, she wants to see if the worst case scenario will happen.

[Velorien]

I'd like to point out that characters not showing curiosity about important things, even major worldbuilding issues like the forcefield, may be frustrating for us as players, but it's fully justified within the game. As far back as CS2, Vita alludes to the existence of a "system" that makes people forget or shrug off massive events like Divine Knight activities or the Infernal Castle, and in CS4, Campanella refers to shackles that prevent ordinary people (but not the likes of Epstein) from comprehending certain things. There are other minor references I can't remember, but the long and the short of it is that Trails is explicit about there being global-scale mind control that maintains the status quo.

As for the Sept-Terrions, I can't see them being anything other than time bombs. Their effects on the civilisations they're given to are in many cases entirely predictable, especially when you're a freaking deity. Of course if you give objects capable of giving an overwhelming military advantage to two factions at war, they'll end up being used for war. That's not a test at all, unless weapons tests count. Nor is the creation of the Great One a test result, because that happened even after the two clans realised what was happening and tried to cancel it.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by Velorien:

....

That.... might work. I overlooked the possibility of a system doing mind control about the world thing though the "reveal" could be done better, especially since if there was mind control, how could they then have brought it up so casually in conversation. It might have been better as a scene in future games where trying to explore the outer regions results in the party being stalled rather than it coming up in some random casual conversation.

As for the war thingy, who knows? Perhaps Aidios doesn't quite get it because she can't think like a human? I mean, the different Sept-Terrions all gave divergent results, one was used for war and causes strife, the other was used for a good life and the whole society became indolent. One went too far in peace, the other went too far in war. If Aidios was not human, that would probably have confused the hell out of her.

/inb4 A.I.D.I.O.S = Artificial Intelligence Directed Immersive Operating System

Money on "colony ship heading to another planet"?

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Actually this was foreshadowed even in CS1 when Lianne saved Class VII from the Nosferatu and all the cutscenes about her and Drechaels. It was already strongly hinted that she had ties with Rean and at that time I thought he was the reincarnation.

No, that's not foreshadowing at all. That thing in CS 1 was a completely random (and-still-unexplained) glimpse of a character. The memories in CS 2 were random magic mysteriousness, and a "reasonable" explanation for them is that Rean was the new Ashen Awakener. The visions were not hints at all of Lianne having ties with Rean.

Congrats, you half-guessed a plot twist, but that does not make it "foreshadowing" or "obvious" to anyone else.

Originally posted by Velorien:

I'd like to point out that characters not showing curiosity about important things, even major worldbuilding issues like the forcefield, may be frustrating for us as players, but it's fully justified within the game. As far back as CS2, Vita alludes to the existence of a "system" that makes people forget or shrug off massive events like Divine Knight activities or the Infernal Castle, and in CS4, Campanella refers to shackles that prevent ordinary people (but not the likes of Epstein) from comprehending certain things. There are other minor references I can't remember, but the long and the short of it is that Trails is explicit about there being global-scale mind control that maintains the status quo.

No, that's not the same thing. That "system" had people forget stuff. Class VII remembered the things after the reveal. They didn't forget it. They certainly didn't forget it while the reveal was still taking place. Also, the whole F**KING point of that well scene was literally TO REVEAL INFORMATION. All of Old and New Class VII were specifically brought there to see that. There's no point bringing them there if they are to have the knowledge scrubbed from their heads immediately.

In addition, that part in CS 2 where Vita revealed the history of the Divine Knights had Class VII protest that history would have known about that. They asked questions then, about that. So why wouldn't such "magical in-curiosity" not have made them incurious about that as well?

No, I'm not accepting "magical in-curiosity" as a reasonable explanation. Even if that were the case, that ends up being bad writing anyway.

[Exor]

Since this series likes to foreshadow lore in books and stories I think the Arc en Ciel play in Trials from Zero is a recollection of Aidios (sun priestess) and her sister Grandmaster (shadow priestess).
Aidios died during the great collapse either being killed by Grandmaster or sacrificing herself to save the Grandmaster.
Zemuria is maybe slowly dying becasue of Aidios death - delpeted dragon veins in the east.
Grandmaster is probably trying to save the world by collecting all Sept-Terrion.
Haven't played Kuro yet so maybe the desertification of east Zemuria is due to another Sept-Terrion.
But I think the Arc en Ciel play hints on something since it had such a big focus.

[Velorien]

Originally posted by Exor:

Since this series likes to foreshadow lore in books and stories I think the Arc en Ciel play in Trials from Zero is a recollection of Aidios (sun priestess) and her sister Grandmaster (shadow priestess).
Aidios died during the great collapse either being killed by Grandmaster or sacrificing herself to save the Grandmaster.
Zemuria is maybe slowly dying becasue of Aidios death - delpeted dragon veins in the east.
Grandmaster is probably trying to save the world by collecting all Sept-Terrion.
Haven't played Kuro yet so maybe the desertification of east Zemuria is due to another Sept-Terrion.
But I think the Arc en Ciel play hints on something since it had such a big focus.

I'm afraid Kondo is officially on record as stating that the play wasn't intended to mean anything.

[Exor]

Originally posted by Velorien:

Originally posted by Exor:

Since this series likes to foreshadow lore in books and stories I think the Arc en Ciel play in Trials from Zero is a recollection of Aidios (sun priestess) and her sister Grandmaster (shadow priestess).
Aidios died during the great collapse either being killed by Grandmaster or sacrificing herself to save the Grandmaster.
Zemuria is maybe slowly dying becasue of Aidios death - delpeted dragon veins in the east.
Grandmaster is probably trying to save the world by collecting all Sept-Terrion.
Haven't played Kuro yet so maybe the desertification of east Zemuria is due to another Sept-Terrion.
But I think the Arc en Ciel play hints on something since it had such a big focus.

I'm afraid Kondo is officially on record as stating that the play wasn't intended to mean anything.

Oh, didn't know that.
Then the grandmaster is Dorothy.

[Legendary Mr. Tiddles]

Originally posted by Exor:

Originally posted by Velorien:

I'm afraid Kondo is officially on record as stating that the play wasn't intended to mean anything.

Oh, didn't know that.
Then the grandmaster is Dorothy.

Even I could have guessed that. There's just no way she survives all those ordeals in the establishing moments and then just vanishes from the narrative. That's plain career suicide for anyone who wields the pen.

[Barefoot]

even tho it's stated wasn't meant to be, everyone that think who she may be does give the Dev's idea's of who she might become in future game's tho

you know to give it some background