Does anyone feel Cold Steel suffer from character bloat? (Spoilers)

[ArchmageXin]

Trails of Sky for me was one of the great JRPG I ever played. I also enjoy Trail of Cold Streel 1 a lot and most of Trail 2.

But by Cold Steel three I really begin to feel uncomfortable. And IV sort of nail it to the door.

I think the issue is just character bloat. While Cold Steel I and II manage it well by making sure you don't have more than 5 character in your party at a time, by the time CS III and IV you have both class 7 around...and nearly all the female characters want to bone you.

I am ok with harem (This is a 15+ years old Chunni game and all), but this lead to incessant bloat when every character have 2 lines on every event. The Grail story arc at end of III was cringe inducing, and the IV part where they go find Rean...is so absurd from beginning to the end as everyone have to say something...every...five...step of the way.

Does anyone feel the same?

[elmaton04]

I'm in the middle of Act II now and I haven't finished the game yet, but yeah I do feel that there are too many characters in your party. However, CS III and so far CS IV was never really about the original class VII as the center stage since most of the main focus in both character development and story progression revolves around the new Class VII with the old Class VII as side characters. So because of that, I pay little attention to the old class VII, and I always set my main focus towards the new Class VII for build up their orbments, gear upgrades, and party selection.

As much as I loved Emma as my main spell caster in CS1 and CS2, I never bothered to used her at all so far since Altina and Musse do a good job at it, plus Altina and Musee have better Crafts anyway. As for the rest of old Class VII, I fee like they got nerf pretty heavily as well.

[Histidine]

Yeah, old Class VII was already a bit oversized and keeping them relevant alongside new Class VII resulted in a really bloated roster. And then there are the guest and semi-guest characters on top of that...

Story-wise I think it wasn't too bad, but for gameplay, gear management becomes a bit of a chore if you use all the characters (which I did like the diversity of).

and the IV part where they go find Rean...is so absurd from beginning to the end as everyone have to say something...every...five...step of the way.

It'll get especially ridiculous in the scene when you arrive at the final dungeon.
Rean is about to give his pre-finale pep talk speech, when the others stop him and say they want in too, with the whole 'making Rean not shoulder his burdens alone' thing they have going on. Because this ends up meaning "every one of the 17 sidekicks present gets a line", they spend half the resulting scene tediously enumerating all the powerful antagonists we're about to face. Le sigh.

[SolveVideCoag]

Cold Steel 4 ruined this series for me and I don't know if I'll play any more of the titles. 2 basic reasons, the first is what was pointed out above about every damn person in your party having to throw in 1 or more lines before every boss fight. Trails turned from immersive into excessive, CS3 was bad enough without the follow-up being even worse. I'm not here for 15-minute motivational speeches before EVERY dungeon, boss, whatever.

The other thing that absolutely ruined things for me is your inability to modify equipment or orbments for the guest characters. You have people in your party who have years and years of combat experience, but they can't bother themselves to upgrade from a 50% accuracy to 100%, and the game locks you into these types of stats? Sure it adds to the challenge, but it destroyed what would have otherwise been a nostalgic experience and made me loathe any segment where they're required.

[Dr. Rudolf von Richten]

All very valid criticisms. For me, the good stuff in CS 4 outweighs these issues, but I can totally see how someone might feel differently.

[Id3alistic]

Highlight of CS3 and 4 for me were just seeing all the old characters grown up/returning. Everything else was pretty meh. Could have done without NC7, but I don't hate them.

Also felt CS4 true ending was awesome. It felt like a true conclusion to the series. Finished Hajimari awhile ago so I'm ready for Kuro in 3+ years.

[Pozhinateli]

Many characters is big advantage of the entire series. From story point of that is very ok, but from gameplay it is different. I do hate how game is toxic at taking control from me over party, party members etc. All this series doing right is story, but gameplay looks like done by bunch of interns.
I just started this game and all the time, from 1 game I have same feeling I would prefer wach anime.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally posted by Histidine:

Yeah, old Class VII was already a bit oversized and keeping them relevant alongside new Class VII resulted in a really bloated roster. And then there are the guest and semi-guest characters on top of that...

Story-wise I think it wasn't too bad, but for gameplay, gear management becomes a bit of a chore if you use all the characters (which I did like the diversity of).

and the IV part where they go find Rean...is so absurd from beginning to the end as everyone have to say something...every...five...step of the way.

It'll get especially ridiculous in the scene when you arrive at the final dungeon.
Rean is about to give his pre-finale pep talk speech, when the others stop him and say they want in too, with the whole 'making Rean not shoulder his burdens alone' thing they have going on. Because this ends up meaning "every one of the 17 sidekicks present gets a line", they spend half the resulting scene tediously enumerating all the powerful antagonists we're about to face. Le sigh.

Having a good speech before the final hour is fine...expect Rean must have given like 30 such pep speeches over his career, and worst of all at least 2/3 of them must have been about his high school class :(

I have this dark rational explaination that the entire Trail 3-4 is really Osborne trying to be nice to his son by creating a branch campus so his son can stay and live in his Middle/High School illusion.

then creating a World War so Rean can play hero while rest of the cast just went along with it.

[Alex]

Naw.
It just joins characters from previous games to the story, that's why it's like it's bloating.
NCVII is a disaster though, introduced too late in the series, they get too little screen time and are basically put under the rug by the OCVII and other characters in IV.

[Alex]

I liked the diversity though, I hated playing III with NCVII to be honest.

[Dr. Rudolf von Richten]

Originally posted by Alex:

Naw.
It just joins characters from previous games to the story, that's why it's like it's bloating.
NCVII is a disaster though, introduced too late in the series, they get too little screen time and are basically put under the rug by the OCVII and other characters in IV.

Bwuh?

NCVII get's an entire game (CS 3) to be in the spotlight, takes center stage in CS 4, Act 1 and has a prominent role in the rest of CS 4 as well. Most people who have issues with NCVII feel they're stealing OCVII's thunder, not the other way around.

[Pozhinateli]

True, I want use party made mostly from old class 7 while game forcing new ones. For me this game design is just toxic. This forced use of new class 7 make me hate them.

It sad game do not use different design. Like ability to choose main character from old class 7 as main character. And freedom to create party as player want, what should have sight effect on the story.

[Dr. Rudolf von Richten]

Originally posted by Pozhinateli:

True, I want use party made mostly from old class 7 while game forcing new ones. For me this game design is just toxic. This forced use of new class 7 make me hate them.

It sad game do not use different design. Like ability to choose main character from old class 7 as main character. And freedom to create party as player want, what should have sight effect on the story.

I can understand wanting the game to be different from what it is, but that sentiment won't do you much good. What you suggest would be some pretty fundamental alterations to the game's structure, story and gameplay, which is just not feasible for a JRPG like this. Probably there are other games out there which suit your desires better, like Western RPG's for example?

[Pozhinateli]

Originally posted by Dr. Rudolf von Richten:

I can understand wanting the game to be different from what it is, but that sentiment won't do you much good. What you suggest would be some pretty fundamental alterations to the game's structure, story and gameplay, which is just not feasible for a JRPG like this. Probably there are other games out there which suit your desires better, like Western RPG's for example?

I do not see how it would make any fundamental changes, especially to the story. It would give just some freedom to players to choose and do very minor changes to game itself. Of course there are games that suit me better but I have finished them long time ago. And by the way, I play all kind of RPGs, the ones with GM as well. But I see here we have a great game but with a few diathesisas. And it is hard to watch this depth lore, great long story across few games with is it mastrpiece. But at same time gameplay that leave alot to improve, it's hurts.

[Dr. Rudolf von Richten]

Originally posted by Pozhinateli:

I do not see how it would make any fundamental changes, especially to the story. It would give just some freedom to players to choose and do very minor changes to game itself. Of course there are games that suit me better but I have finished them long time ago. And by the way, I play all kind of RPGs, the ones with GM as well. But I see here we have a great game but with a few diathesisas. And it is hard to watch this depth lore, great long story across few games with is it mastrpiece. But at same time gameplay that leave alot to improve, it's hurts.

Well in CS 3 the story is about Rean and his students, i.e. NC7. Altering that (for example, making Rean a government agent instead of a teacher) would very much alter the way the game is structured and would hence mean a rewrite of large parts of the story; e.g. the whole 'run around Leeves on free days, then go on a field trip with the entire school' thing would have to change. It's not impossible, but it would be a very different game.

Choosing someone other than Rean as the MC would mean even more fundamental changes and require a total of 11 different game structures, since different characters would approach any given situation in very different ways, if it even makes sense for them to do so at all. Someone like Jusis just can't go gallivanting around Erebonia when he has a province to run, and Alisa and Machias also have their jobs to consider, not to mention Gaius, who isn't even in the country.

In a game with this level of detail and worldbuilding, you just can't do multiple alternate MCs; the MC (Rean) is so intricately interwoven with the whole story that choosing another MC would essentially mean writing a different game, unless you remove all that specificity in either the story or the MC. In the former case you've lost everything that makes the game special, in the latter case a change in MC is rather pointless, since you just change the name and looks, but the essential characteristics stay the same.

As for CS4, there are not that many times when you're forced to use NC7; Act 1, The last 2 boss battles of Fragments, infiltrating Leeves in Act 2 and the Pantagruel section at the end of Act 2, everywhere else you're either free to use anyone (except your single NC7 minder) or are forced to bring the characters from OC7 and NC7 which make sense for the story.

The Fragments and Leeves parts I think also make total sense for the story, the Pantagruel part I'm willing to concede could have given you more freedom to choose without changing much in the story, but it is rather short anyway (and the fact that your non C7 teammates have such crappy setups is a far bigger issue there).

That leaves Act 1; the part that's seemingly the most likely candidate for more freedom in choice of teammembers. But I'd argue that even there, it makes sense to play as NC7, since you're going to find your missing classmates and/or go to their hometowns, so not having them present would weaken the story.

Ultimately though, of course they could have written a different story and a different game than they did. Rean + 3 other people as junior Intelligence Division agents for example, or as Prince Oliverts counter to the Intelligence Division (without the school as intermediary). Perhaps it would even be a better game than we've got. But they didn't, and complaining about it is just not fruitful. It's a JRPG; linear, detailed and specific. Live with it.

[ArchmageXin]

Honestly speaking, I wish Rean was anything but a Thor teacher. His focus for Thor in the middle of a civil war and the duel with Patrick was odd/absurd, but making him a Teacher in III and IV shows he couldn't outgrow his role compared to other old class 7 folks.