No more normal bases = no new players ???

[L3goury]

Hi guys,

So after last patch, dev totally change the way danger is calculated, specially for normal base.
A lot of players are complaining about the fact, you couldnt put that much traps into a base in order to let it stay normal difficulty.
In other hand, I can read that a lot of beginners are complaining about normal maps are too difficult, so I want to know why ?

Here's my feeling about it :

I played during beta and I made my 1rst base, a normal one. So during launch, my base was still here and was lvl 8 I guess. It was a base using : 2 guards and boltshot behind you when focusing them, and a lot of traps on 2nd wave, acid block all around, 4 boltshot in this room, then boltshots behind you on corridor and impalers close from boltshot when you destroy it.
And my KDA was pretty strong specially for a normal map : 8 KDA at beginning, and 5 KDA now. I didnt see a lot of players leaving before finishing my map.

1 month ago, I made a new normal map. Nothing fancy, just few traps and 2 guards but well placed cause I learn a lot during this month. I have : 2 bomb ejector, 1 fake block with impaler, 4 boltshots, and a room with 1 laser, 2 guards and boltshot. As you can read, almost same number of traps and guards than 1rst map during launch.
My KDA for this map ? 2 KDA. Why ? Cause more than 50% of players are leaving my maps after less than 2 deaths !!!

So yeah, based on my own experience, I really think beginners now think almost all outposts are unfair !!! And so, they dont even try to learn the game, and beat a level, and just abandon too quickly !!!

As an "experienced" player, I just dont want to make any normal outposts anymore, cause even if I try to make a fair outpost, it still seems unfair for beginners.

So my question is : if experienced players stop making normal outposts cause beginners dont play it and with changes of danger rating of normal outpost, there will be no more normal outposts, so no new beginners ???

[Cleril]

Regardless of rating there are trap setups that are unfair. Flame, corner, corner, 2-3 lava cube, for example.

The rating is rather pointless and poorly done. It should be removed and replaced with a tag system. For the billionth time we're discussing this because the devs don't want to change it.

[L3goury]

Yeah i totally agree,

But what Im exposing with my exemple, its that Im not using any advanced way to trap players.

Ive seen dozens and dozens of beginners, just leaving my outpost after being killed by a fake cube and impaler above.

And I read on reddit some "expert" players saying they wont create any normal outposts anymore. So how could new players try the game of there is no normal outposts anymrore ?

I guess, since beta, that if there is no outpost raidable at a moment, you would raid outposts made by devs. And maybe it would be more fair with beginners to start with such outposts.

[Estellese]

I don't see people leaving after one or two deaths. And I did have a relatively hard normal map. (Hard, compared to other normal maps. Still exceptionally easy compared to dangerous and brutal maps.)

That seems to be an issue more specific to you.


My main issue with this update is that they didn't reduce the rewards for normal outposts. I don't care if they want one outpost difficulty to be absolutely braindead easy for newbies. They won't learn anything playing those outposts, but they can exist.

The problem is that they give so many resources that there really isn't much point playing dangerous or brutal outposts. You get more Synthite from normal outposts and with almost no effort. That was a problem before the update, and is now an even bigger problem.

[Polar Test 53]

normals get the most plays for me tbh. kinda glad i can add more stuff to them now to flesh them out a bit more.

if everyones leaving since the last patch it could very well all be new bugs causing crashes.
and for your ahem "experienced redditor" is gonna be in for a rough time cause people leave at all levels of difficulty pretty evenly. as well you get less players overall at the higher levels in my experience at least.

[L3goury]

The 50% leaving players on normal outpost was 1 month ago. In majority, it was console players, so maybe my outpost wasnt "controller friendly".

And yeah people leave at all lvl of difficulty, but because I personnaly dont make killbox or maze, people never leave my outpost after 1 or 2 deaths, except the normal one !!!

And yeah I agree with you, normal outpost got almost 2 times or 3 times more raids than other difficulty outpost. So its pretty cool to create it. But because of new danger calculation + (in my own experience) a lot of leavers for normal outpost, Im not sure a lot of players would create normal outpost anymore...
Because of you want new players in your game, you need them to come play it (free week-end was good for ex). Then you need them to give them enough fun to play longer your game. And for this part, Ive seen and read a lot of comments about beginners complaining about outpost difficulty. And for me, its absurd to rework danger calculation, and just dont block access to dangerous and brutal difficulty before a certain lvl, and let beginners playing outpost made by devs at 1rst like during beta !!!!

As a beginner, my experience during beta was really good, and it could be cool to let players before lvl 10, raiding outposts made by dev that are really more fair to learn the game than awful killboxes and unfunny mazes !!!

[L3goury]

Originally posted by Estellese:

I don't see people leaving after one or two deaths. And I did have a relatively hard normal map. (Hard, compared to other normal maps. Still exceptionally easy compared to dangerous and brutal maps.)

That seems to be an issue more specific to you.


My main issue with this update is that they didn't reduce the rewards for normal outposts. I don't care if they want one outpost difficulty to be absolutely braindead easy for newbies. They won't learn anything playing those outposts, but they can exist.

The problem is that they give so many resources that there really isn't much point playing dangerous or brutal outposts. You get more Synthite from normal outposts and with almost no effort. That was a problem before the update, and is now an even bigger problem.

Ive read your post about same subject on reddit and its funny how your experience and mine are so different.

You said, quote : "This is because "normal" outposts are not commonly played by new players. I have at least one outpost in all categories, and I see WAY more new players running brutal difficulty than I see running normal difficulty.

For my normal outpost, 80% of players are < lvl 15, and Ive seen only 1 or 2 masters playing it. Maybe thats why almost nobody left your normal outpost and 50% of players left mine.


You said aswell : "The players who have played long enough to do the math, and realize that normal outposts are the fastest way to get synthite. (Because normal outposts take 30-60 seconds to finish, you almost can't die, and they pay out 45 synthite. When a 15-20 minute brutal outpost only gives 75.)

I strongly disagree with that cause you forgot the main thing that giving you synthite : tombs and traps/guard. On brutal outpost, there are 3 tombs and 5 times number of traps/guards. When I finish a brutal outpost, I have 200 synthite (with boost) + 75 for reward. For a normal outpost, 50 + 45. And I dont need 3 times as long to finish it. Cause I can die in normal outpost.
But I think it depends the way you play. A speedrunner could prefer a normal outpost cause he wont take time to loot tombs. But to be honest, after playing the game 100h, I prefer to raid brutal just cause its more funny for me. Even if sometimes I raid normal ones, I felt bored after a few of it.

Another of your quote from reddit : "Now that normal outposts are even easier, and they still pay out that 45 synthite. There is even less reason for veterans to play brutal or dangerous maps. "
Again, depends of affinity with gameplay. Almost all "big" streamers of MyM (ambitious, eksback, karessmoua,...) only play brutal outpost when doing rank map. Cause they want some challenge. And cause they have 90000 synthite ^^ But still, they never play normal outpost except for a social request !!!

In my 1rst post her,e I explained my point of view from my own experience, and Im opened to other point of view like yours, from your own experience. As I said before, this game is not the kind of game you have to play in this way only. Some prefer to have fun building, for others its raiding. Some want a lot of challenge, other want to play it chill. There is not an only way to play MyM, and you, as other, need to be open minded about it.

[Estellese]

Imma pick this apart because some lines I want to directly address.

Originally posted by L3goury:

Ive read your post about same subject on reddit and its funny how your experience and mine are so different.

For my normal outpost, 80% of players are < lvl 15, and Ive seen only 1 or 2 masters playing it. Maybe thats why almost nobody left your normal outpost and 50% of players left mine.

I call BS on this statistic. I don't mean to be rude but I think you pulled that outta your arse. Show me two days of raids on your base, and what rank the raiders were. I'll also share mine, as I have run mine twice since the update wiped the raid log.

https://i.imgur.com/Rom6Ez2.jpg

Match up the grave tag with the raid on your raid list, like I did here. So it is clear you're not cherrypicking low level graves.

For those who don't want to read through that poorly edited mess.

Players:

Scoripusx93 - Level 5
Iamussr - Level 12
Midgnit - Level 5
Stakers2020 - Level 3
Dodoier - Level 15
Ben Atomic - Level 10
ProsGod (Can't find graves, presumably newbie)

Diurne - Level 56 - Silver Rank
Psycho Ward 86- Level 59 - Gold rank
Nerdy Cat - Level 83 - Gold Rank
Timenites - Level 57 - Gold Rank
Skippa-iza - Level 57 - Silver Rank
RoboRoyJR16 - Level 69 - Silver
Scorpi4302 - Level 46 - Gold Rank
Mephisto - Level 221 - Master rank
Neffe - Level 34 - Silver
Berryzcigar - Level 34 - Silver rank
JoaoTar - Level 49 - Silver
Driver Jimmy - Level 103 - Gold Rank

CrimeGods - Died ontop of someone else, grave not visible.
Kai Ake - (No deaths)
Eisbar - (No deaths)
Xyceres (No Deaths)

I don't know if it's possible to see the ranks of people who didn't die.

So lets break that down. 7/23 were newbies. That is not 80%, that is 30%. And that is with me assuming Prosgod was under level 15 just because he looked new IMO. If he wasn't, that's 26%.

We have 7 newbies
6 silver ranks
5 gold ranks
1 master rank

But the four who made it deathless (3 + the 1 death guy missing a grave) are more than likely at least gold, if not higher. We can't see them, so we won't know. But they are clearly higher skilled. That would make for 9 gold ranked players, making gold rank (I.E. veterans who know what they are doing) the main group of raiders. Even if they were silver, that's still not new players. that's still veterans who know how to play the game. Just the ones who grind/play less. I'd still be silver myself if I hadn't just decided on a whim to grind to masters just to see if it would make a difference in who was raiding my outposts. Because I was getting a lot of 2-bolt newbies in my brutal base, and I really wanted them to STOP being sent there. So I thought that, maybe, if I was masters rank it would match me with higher rank players. It didn't.

Average level of the people who died is 51. If we include the graveless people, who I am gonna guess are higher than 51 and higher ranking (because they did it deathless and very fast) that average -should- be higher than 51. But 51 is what we can see and be sure of. Not <15. Not newbies.

Originally posted by L3goury:

You said aswell : "The players who have played long enough to do the math, and realize that normal outposts are the fastest way to get synthite. (Because normal outposts take 30-60 seconds to finish, you almost can't die, and they pay out 45 synthite. When a 15-20 minute brutal outpost only gives 75.)

I strongly disagree with that cause you forgot the main thing that giving you synthite : tombs and traps/guard. On brutal outpost, there are 3 tombs and 5 times number of traps/guards. When I finish a brutal outpost, I have 200 synthite (with boost) + 75 for reward. For a normal outpost, 50 + 45. And I dont need 3 times as long to finish it. Cause I can die in normal outpost.

While in that one quoted post I did not include the tombs, I did include them in my following post when I wrote up the actual math. I will assume you didn't see that, so I will repeat it here. And instead of using my old calculations for brutal map resources (230 synthite average) that I used in that post. I will use yours. (275 synthite average)

And there are other people agreeing with me on that reddit post. And while nobody has posted here, I have seen people saying the same thing in the past. Anyways, maths.

-
Outposts cost 600-1000-ish to activate/prestige. So lets be fair and take the middle number for the maths.

800, per outpost, per day. x5 = 4,000 Synthite per day required for upkeep of 5 outposts.

If you run brutal bases, at 75 Synthite per run plus drops. If you're being generous, you can get about 230 275 synthite per base if you break every trap and always run large maps with three tombs. Brutal bases run an average of 15-20 minutes. So we'll say 15. To get 4,000 Synthite needed for the day, you need to run 15 (rounded up) bases. Which is 225 minutes, or 3 hours 45 minutes of raiding.

If you run normal bases you get 45 synthite per run, plus drops. (But usually very few drops. So we'll be generous and pretend you get no drops and get no tombs because you're speedrunning. So we'll say just 45.) At 45 per run, you need to run 89 normal bases. Each one taking 30 seconds to 1 minute. So you're looking at one and a half hours of raiding to sustain your 5 bases.

And speedrunning normal bases is easy enough that you don't need to be very good to do it. I'm not very good at raiding, and I can do it with the game on mute while I am listening to the news or other videos on 2x speed in the background. You put me in a brutal outpost and I actually need to pay attention, but these normal ones? Unnecessary.


This is a balance issue. Speedrunning normal maps is dreadfully boring, but I don't have almost 4 hours to dedicate to raiding. They need to reduce the base rewards for normal outposts, dramatically, and increase the base rewards for brutal outposts considerably so both better represent the time you spend doing these maps.

Because brutal outposts are by FAR the most fun to play. But the rewards for the time you spent there are ♥♥♥♥. You're not getting enough for the time invested. While the rewards for normal outposts are insane. 45 synthite every minute? It is tedious as hell, but you get synthite SO fast if you just fly through normal outpost after normal outpost. And every game ever made has this problem, players will always optimize the fun out of the game. It needs to be fixed before more people catch on. And the fix needs to not just nerf normal outpost resources, but also buff brutal outpost resources at the same time.

Originally posted by L3goury:

But I think it depends the way you play. A speedrunner could prefer a normal outpost cause he wont take time to loot tombs. But to be honest, after playing the game 100h, I prefer to raid brutal just cause its more funny for me. Even if sometimes I raid normal ones, I felt bored after a few of it.

I'm not talking about preferred playstyles, that is irrelevant.

I'm talking math and balance issues. When people are playing casually, they will use their preferred playstyle. When people want synthite, they are going to take the fastest path possible to that goal, and that is currently extremely unbalanced towards normal outposts.

Originally posted by L3goury:

Again, depends of affinity with gameplay. Almost all "big" streamers of MyM (ambitious, eksback, karessmoua,...) only play brutal outpost when doing rank map. Cause they want some challenge. And cause they have 90000 synthite ^^ But still, they never play normal outpost except for a social request !!!

This is, again, preferred playstyles which is irrelevant to what I am talking about.

And of course streamers play brutal outposts. Their job is to be entertaining, and someone grinding normals is not entertaining for an audience (or the person grinding). Then, also, streamers often do this as a job, or a second job. So they spend WAY more hours in game than normal players, so Synthite is not an issue for them. They easily put in the 4 hours a day needed to upkeep 5 bases. And if you put in those hours, then you don't need extra grinding. You said yourself, they play so much they don't need to grind. That's not the average player.

Originally posted by L3goury:

As I said before, this game is not the kind of game you have to play in this way only. Some prefer to have fun building, for others its raiding. Some want a lot of challenge, other want to play it chill. There is not an only way to play MyM, and you, as other, need to be open minded about it.

Do not put words in my mouth, and do not twist what I am saying, that is rude and disrespectful.

I have never, at any time, said people HAVE to play one specific way. Nor have I been anything but open-minded. Even though I am almost certain your 80% statistic is false, I openly give you the invitation to prove otherwise instead of just disregarding it. So long as you use the same system I did to prove you're not cherrypicking.

I've pointed out the major imbalance in difficulty rewards, and pointed out that despite what you think, a lot of people are already abusing this. And the number of people speedrunning normals for synthite is only going up as the information trickles down to lower-rank players. No part of that is disparaging other people's playstyles. If anything, evening out the resource gains like I want to would encourage and reward more playstyles than the game currently does. If things went the way I want them to, every difficulty would give you a fair amount of resources for the time you spend in them. Which means you can play however you want and not be taking a cut to your resources.

Where as right now, if you aren't running normals you're getting close to 1/3 the resources you would be getting had you run normals instead. And you're working harder for it too. That's not fair to people who don't like speedrunning normals.

[Lfod]

Well just from raiding today I have seen multiple outpost made by very low level players. So I would just assume there are new players. I'm not jumping into a lot of whatever else is being talked about, I only wanted to comment on the idea that there were no new people entering the game.

[Polar Test 53]

okay estellese i kinda get what your trying to get at. i dont think its that normals give too much its just that brutals give too little in comparison to how difficult they are and how much time they can take for an average player.
but i wouldnt say we need to reduce the amount of points given by normal bases just for the players that enjoy playing the highest difficulty. to frick over the people who can only handle normals thats just backwords thinking. the nerf mentality rather then buff the things that need buffing. is an easy pit to fall into ive done it a few times

its not unfair to people who play brutal and take a whole coffee break to complete a raid. you are either doing it to get better or you enjoy it. if your just running brutals with the intent to farm and are just not good enough to do it fast and optimally but refuse to do anything less then brutal thats a them issue. or if you dont enjoy farming normals theres always dangerous.

i think being able to farm at any skill level is great with how the games economy is set up RN
them making challenges award only cells was a huge letdown. it would've been the perfect way to to give more synthite to the players while adding more things to do like challenging higher difficultys. like who the hell needs cells you are flooded with them and they serve no purpose after levels 40-60.

[Estellese]

Originally posted by Polar Test 53:

okay estellese i kinda get what your trying to get at. i dont think its that normals give too much its just that brutals give too little in comparison to how difficult they are and how much time they can take for an average player.
but i wouldnt say we need to reduce the amount of points given by normal bases just for the players that enjoy playing the highest difficulty. to frick over the people who can only handle normals thats just backwords thinking. the nerf mentality rather then buff the things that need buffing. is an easy pit to fall into ive done it a few times

its not unfair to people who play brutal and take a whole coffee break to complete a raid. you are either doing it to get better or you enjoy it. if your just running brutals with the intent to farm and are just not good enough to do it fast and optimally but refuse to do anything less then brutal thats a them issue. or if you don't enjoy farming normals theres always dangerous.

i think being able to farm at any skill level is great with how the games economy is set up RN
them making challenges award only cells was a huge letdown. it would've been the perfect way to to give more synthite to the players while adding more things to do like challenging higher difficultys. like who the hell needs cells you are flooded with them and they serve no purpose after levels 40-60.

My thought process was to balance things in the way it seems the developers intended the game to run. Not to make normals unfarmable, but to make all difficulties roughly the same resources per hour spent in them. (I personally think brutals should give more per hour than lower difficulties. Because more difficulty should come with more reward. But held back that argument as I think it would be unpopular, and only argued for them to be equal.)

I would 100% be in favor of just bringing brutal and dangerous outposts to have the same, super high synthite drop rates as normals currently have. Frankly, I would like that more as I am a builder, not a raider. So more synthite is just a good thing to me.

But I don't think the developers will ever do that. I am pretty sure they don't intend for Synthite to be this easy to get. Which is why I argued for bringing normals down to the level of Brutals instead of Brutals up to the level of normals.



And the last paragraph on challenges I agree 100% with.

[L3goury]

Originally posted by Polar Test 53:

okay estellese i kinda get what your trying to get at. i dont think its that normals give too much its just that brutals give too little in comparison to how difficult they are and how much time they can take for an average player.
but i wouldnt say we need to reduce the amount of points given by normal bases just for the players that enjoy playing the highest difficulty. to frick over the people who can only handle normals thats just backwords thinking. the nerf mentality rather then buff the things that need buffing. is an easy pit to fall into ive done it a few times

its not unfair to people who play brutal and take a whole coffee break to complete a raid. you are either doing it to get better or you enjoy it. if your just running brutals with the intent to farm and are just not good enough to do it fast and optimally but refuse to do anything less then brutal thats a them issue. or if you dont enjoy farming normals theres always dangerous.

i think being able to farm at any skill level is great with how the games economy is set up RN
them making challenges award only cells was a huge letdown. it would've been the perfect way to to give more synthite to the players while adding more things to do like challenging higher difficultys. like who the hell needs cells you are flooded with them and they serve no purpose after levels 40-60.

Totally agree with your point of view.

And for Estellese, I dont get it. I think, the way you think about this problem is petty wrong.

edit : about stats you gave, I really want to do it with my own normal outposts, but right now Im travelling for business and cant play the game until 2 weeks
Cause you said :

Originally posted by "Estellese":

"My thought process was to balance things in the way it seems the developers intended the game to run"

and

Originally posted by "Estellese":

"I'm not talking about preferred playstyles, that is irrelevant.

This is, again, preferred playstyles which is irrelevant to what I am talking about."

Right here, you are doing THE EXACT SAME MISTAKE than devs : thinking players would play the way you want them to play your game.

Ofc some players would just speedrun your lvl cause they have some tools to do it, and they think its fun, and they dont like to waste time.
Ofc some other players would just take their time and try to dont die while raiding, cause they think thats the way they have to play the game.
Some want to design a maze cause they think its fun, some want to play it cause they think its fun, most of players dont want to play it...

And all along your explanation, you think like there is just a type of player of this game, so all your explanation is wrong

Originally posted by "Estellese":

"And speedrunning normal bases is easy enough that you don't need to be very good to do it."

Speedrunning normal maps is dreadfully boring, but I don't have almost 4 hours to dedicate to raiding

Every way to play the game that is different from your way to play it, for you is (your term) "irrelevant". So in your explanation, you dont take this way to play the game, as, obviously, a way some players want to play it. And thats why all your explanation is false, cause its just the way YOU think the game should be played. And thats why, again, I say you have to be open minded about it !!!


As example of what you said : lets be empathic. We are both a new player in MyM. We start the game, problably dont know what tomb is, doing some normal outposts and maybe some dangerous or brutal. We died a lot before completing outposts. Why ? Cause there are a lot of diversity of traps/guards and more important, a lot of mod at the beginning. When we think a trap is doing this, no ; a new mod changed it.
So its hard for us to finish outpost, hard to earn xp and ressources so, and I think its by far more grindy than at launch to earn ressources cause of that.
So the idea for you to nerf ressources that a normal outpost give (just cause some "experienced" players played it to farm ressources), its a way to just mak it mor grindy for beginners. And so, a way to have less players play it imo !!!

[Marauder]

Originally posted by Estellese:

I don't see people leaving after one or two deaths. And I did have a relatively hard normal map. (Hard, compared to other normal maps. Still exceptionally easy compared to dangerous and brutal maps.)

That seems to be an issue more specific to you.


My main issue with this update is that they didn't reduce the rewards for normal outposts. I don't care if they want one outpost difficulty to be absolutely braindead easy for newbies. They won't learn anything playing those outposts, but they can exist.

The problem is that they give so many resources that there really isn't much point playing dangerous or brutal outposts. You get more Synthite from normal outposts and with almost no effort. That was a problem before the update, and is now an even bigger problem.

Wait what.

So I occasionally come to check on this game because I thought the basic idea was neat. But it seems to have massive issues and I was hoping it might get fixed before I'd ever buy it. Which doesn't appear to be the case.

Some of the major problems involve it being unrewarding, high maintenance, etc. Which drove many people away. And you think it should be EVEN LESS REWARDING in general? What the hell.

[Estellese]

Originally posted by Marauder:

Originally posted by Estellese:

I don't see people leaving after one or two deaths. And I did have a relatively hard normal map. (Hard, compared to other normal maps. Still exceptionally easy compared to dangerous and brutal maps.)

That seems to be an issue more specific to you.


My main issue with this update is that they didn't reduce the rewards for normal outposts. I don't care if they want one outpost difficulty to be absolutely braindead easy for newbies. They won't learn anything playing those outposts, but they can exist.

The problem is that they give so many resources that there really isn't much point playing dangerous or brutal outposts. You get more Synthite from normal outposts and with almost no effort. That was a problem before the update, and is now an even bigger problem.

Wait what.

So I occasionally come to check on this game because I thought the basic idea was neat. But it seems to have massive issues and I was hoping it might get fixed before I'd ever buy it. Which doesn't appear to be the case.

Some of the major problems involve it being unrewarding, high maintenance, etc. Which drove many people away. And you think it should be EVEN LESS REWARDING in general? What the hell.

No, I said the rewards should be equal across all difficulties (equal rewards for average time spent.). As I said to Polar, I would like it more if they increased the rewards for brutal and dangerous outposts to be the same as normal outposts currently are. But I do not believe the devs will ever do that. They have made their stance very clear that they do not want Synthite to be this easy to get.

In order to match a normal outpost, taking 1 minute to run and giving 45 Synthite, brutals would have to have a base reward of 675 just to be close to equal with normals. And even if brutals had a base reward of 675... Normals would still give more, because many can be completed in under 30 seconds and some brutals will take over 15 minutes. I'd say 675, or even 600 as 'close enough' to equal. But the devs will never do that.

But it needs to be balanced one way or another, it very heavily distinctiveness raiding with it being as imbalanced as it is now. If they, one way or another, make it so all difficulties are equal, they people can actually play however they want and not need to worry about wasting time.

And I am ignoring Goury as he has decided to be dishonest and manipulative instead of having an actual discussion. The points he keeps claiming I am making are not the points I am making. The points I am making can be boiled down to.

1) The difficulties are massively imbalanced for rewards. Which is fact, they are.

2) Something needs to be done about this imbalance, as it heavily, heavily punishes people for playing brutal outposts. As more people learn this, more people will stop raiding brutals. It is a snowball, it's small now but will be a bigger problem eventually if not addressed. (My opinion)

3) The devs are extremely unlikely to buff brutals to the same insane reward level normals currently are at. The devs are also extremely likely to nerf normals into the ground once they realize this imbalance exists and is causing an issue. (My opinion)

To which I say the best thing we can do is argue for a middleground. Which means normals will have to be nerfed, but not nerfed into the ground, and with that nerf will need to come a buff to brutals (and dangerous, but mostly brutals). So that no matter what difficulty you're playing on, you're getting the same loot for the time spent. (Presuming you play well and finish maps quickly) The only people getting less loot from that are the ones currently spamming normals, everyone else would be getting more. But even if you cut the normals loot in half, you'd still get way more than necessary exceptionally fast, as my math assumes all normals take 1 minute, but realistically they take less.

Polar (if I read correctly) agrees that there's an imbalance, but thinks we should argue that brutals be brought up to the same level as normals currently are. Which I would love, but I think is an unrealistic goal. The devs simply won't do that no matter how much we push for it. (IMO, of course).

And Goury's off arguing in some alternate universe where I am apparently telling people they can't play they wanna play. Even after I explicitly said that isn't the point I am making and have said multiple times that I want all playstyles to be viable.


So nobody here is arguing that things be less rewarding in general. As Polar is arguing for more rewards, and I am arguing for balanced rewards.

[Hope And Despair]

Originally posted by Estellese:

Originally posted by Polar Test 53:

okay estellese i kinda get what your trying to get at. i dont think its that normals give too much its just that brutals give too little in comparison to how difficult they are and how much time they can take for an average player.
but i wouldnt say we need to reduce the amount of points given by normal bases just for the players that enjoy playing the highest difficulty. to frick over the people who can only handle normals thats just backwords thinking. the nerf mentality rather then buff the things that need buffing. is an easy pit to fall into ive done it a few times

its not unfair to people who play brutal and take a whole coffee break to complete a raid. you are either doing it to get better or you enjoy it. if your just running brutals with the intent to farm and are just not good enough to do it fast and optimally but refuse to do anything less then brutal thats a them issue. or if you don't enjoy farming normals theres always dangerous.

i think being able to farm at any skill level is great with how the games economy is set up RN
them making challenges award only cells was a huge letdown. it would've been the perfect way to to give more synthite to the players while adding more things to do like challenging higher difficultys. like who the hell needs cells you are flooded with them and they serve no purpose after levels 40-60.

My thought process was to balance things in the way it seems the developers intended the game to run. Not to make normals unfarmable, but to make all difficulties roughly the same resources per hour spent in them. (I personally think brutals should give more per hour than lower difficulties. Because more difficulty should come with more reward. But held back that argument as I think it would be unpopular, and only argued for them to be equal.)

I would 100% be in favor of just bringing brutal and dangerous outposts to have the same, super high synthite drop rates as normals currently have. Frankly, I would like that more as I am a builder, not a raider. So more synthite is just a good thing to me.

But I don't think the developers will ever do that. I am pretty sure they don't intend for Synthite to be this easy to get. Which is why I argued for bringing normals down to the level of Brutals instead of Brutals up to the level of normals.



And the last paragraph on challenges I agree 100% with.

Makes Sense... Devs are waaaay more into lowering synthite then raising it.
So, lowering normal is more along their ideals.

But, if they were fair, they'd raise brutal gains(Something I asked for on every survey. )

[Marauder]

The devs can be into whatever they want. Being stingy with rewards, punishing players, and requiring a lot of maintenance is what is killing this game and keeping new folks like me from buying it.