Azar is mentally impaired? (SPOILERS)

[salutes inddoors]

Spoilers, as stated in the title.

It's stated in the game that the ice age is coming to an end during the final events of the game - it is also revealed that the cyro pods need the low temperatures of the ice age in order to function and continue running the VR.

I really wanted to sympathize with Azar, but the above fact makes his entire behavior (both his clone and program master) go way past selfish or even stupid, to simply incoherent. If the temperatures are rising enough outside to allow for human habitation, then the ARK project would no longer be able to function in realspace. So when you are fighting that last battle against the program master, it would follow that the VR universe has only hours left before it shuts down, of course annihilating all within.

But maybe there's an overlap in "warm enough for humans to survive" and "cold enough for the ARK to work". After all, they were still alive when they got in the pods in reality. That leaves us with a few possible scenarios:
1. Azar creates his new world, it continues on for as long as the ARK program can continue to function in real life before mechanic failure or rising temperature shuts it down. As I said above, it seemed implied that meant a few hours, but maybe it could last a couple years.
2. The ARK program unloads its real-life occupants and shuts down as planned. Note this means anyone who drank the magic potion would still take their memory of the true intent of the ARK project (eventual deletion of the avatars) into the real world with them.
3. As a variation of the above, the real-world former ARK inhabitants take pity on their digital clones after they awaken, and reinstall the ARK simulation in Antarctica or something after they rebuild civilization. I can't think of why a people so advanced would not be able to pause or reboot such a simulation.

So digital-Azar's best bet for survival in the long term (as well as short-term, by the end of the game) is to have everyone "wake up". He's supposed to be a genius computer programmer, right? Did he not think about this?

I have a few other, smaller complaints about the writing in other places, but I think the above does the greatest harm to the quality of the story, because it makes the motivation for the main mover of the plot completely nonsensical.

[Aldath]

Are the avatars really independent from the related humans, though? It's implied later on by Phoenix (who is as stupid and selfish as Azar and it seems to barely be acknowledged by the playerbase) that if Azar succeeds, the project will keep on running while our bodies decay in the outside and that would eventually mean the avatars will die. I mean, the Master's plan is to wipe out the entire Ark and its inhabitants because that would mean the death of the mind of the related human individuals, and thus, the death of what remains from mankind.

Not only that, but the purpose of the Ark is having our digital consciousness learn to survive in a more primitive society society, since all the knowledge we gain there will accompany us to the real world.

Azar Blanco is just an NPC, that's why he can die without affecting the real Azar and the opposite also applies. It's the only NPC with consciousness as he was made as a surrogate.

The current avatars are just mind washed to exist as whatever they wanted to be. At Golden Friendship level they actually gain the resolve to return to their bodies.

[Zetact]

In the scene with Stella it shows that the avatar is independent from the body, and for instance Haru being comatose IRL but her personality data being able to exist, albeit with apparent amnesia, shows that "lack of brain activity IRL" doesn't mean "lack of personality data."

The reason why PM Azar's plan would eventually lead to the deaths of the avatars is because their lives are reliant on the infrastructure keeping the simulation going, not necessarily that the personality data is linked with the body. Clyne's emergency freeze shows this - Phoenix has an issue with going into the "virtual world within the virtual world" because the Phoenix avatar is not linked with Chiyo's body and she'd need to loop the simulation to re-establish a link if she wanted to enter the second simulation. Or there's also the twins who are two personalities but only one of them is linked to Stella's body (as the credits imply only one of them gets uploaded).

Clyne had some methods of maintenance but I believe they would be performed via the robots that the avatars can access and the Ark Project can reasonably be assumed that it would not need maintenance for hundreds of years - as Phoenix destroys the observation robot about 150 years in but it isn't until over 400 years later that the project reaches conclusion. But it was most likely not something that could run in perpetuity with no connection to the outside world because it does run off of a computer and without a way to access the outside it would eventually break down.

On the subject on why people sort of overlook Phoenix's selfishness it's because her character arc was more fully explored. The writing is fully aware of her selfish desires and doesn't sugarcoat the problems she causes even if her fear of death is entirely understandable. Phoenix's entire character arc is about redeeming those past failures and accepting mortality. She's not meant to be a flat-out antagonistic force like Azar and Clyne.

[MeowMeow]

ah about azar/master, he is not stupid, and he is not THAT selfish.

HE IS ANGRY, thats whole reason on why this endavour happened. He is angry theyre being created to be a sacrificial lamb for the real world people.
Its like current world population laying flat/ tang ping, theyre not selfish, theyre not stupid, theyre angry, even if it cost themself. Same thing is apply to azar.

So azar just want to bring real life people down with him(and digital world). If we cant have proper life so u are. He even bargain and pity lucy at the end, offering her an actual life without loop and die within digital world.
Does he get to live that life? no, but he let lucy and the other digital world occupant atleast had 1 last life without loop for it.

Phoenix is exactly the same, but she admit her mistake earlier because of lucy, just like azar, she pittied her to the point she willing gave up her life for lucy.

I think the last part is written much better than the ealier part, the motive and reason are pretty clear, and even if they just digital person, theyre as human as it can get which led to the event happening in first place.

Lucy suffering and selfless led to phoenix selfless act, thus solidified lucy resolve at the end when she start thinking like azar and phoenix before, and lucy selfless act against master/ azar led to azar selfless act. He honour her sacrifice, thus giving up his whole rant on the thing.

[SufferNot]

Originally posted by risbolla:

azar's motivations is one of the more minor plot holes i think. the entire story is rife with plot holes. from what i can tell the virtual azar/program master's motivations boils down to little more than spite or maybe a pyrrhic victory over humans. and at the same time there seemed to be little reason for actually having to dispose of the avatars at the conclusion of the ark project either

if there was an explanation for why exactly it was necessary to have a simulation in the first place in order for the cryosleep to work then i did not catch it at all in the main story at least. and if it was necessary, why would the rest of the world which is apparently unable to wake itself up from cryo without the help of the ark project be satisfied with a contingent of only some 600 people in the same project without any redundancy

i think the reason for all of these narrative lapses is mainly to set up a disposition for having fun exploring some broader themes about simulation and a virtual self. thinking of it this way makes the story easier for me to appreciate

There are a few reasons why it was necessary to have a simulation running, some of which get mentioned in the main story and some of which are mentioned in the archived notes.

Major problem 1: Cyropods have no feasible way to automatically thaw their occupants. This is a flaw that isn't identified until well into the distribution of the pods, and at that point there isn't enough time to come up with a hardware solution before the world freezes.
Clyne's solution: Create a monitoring system to tell when the world is thawing so that the pods can be thawed.

Major Problem 2: The weather systems that led to the freeze are incredibly complex; it's not a case where you can just have a computer start the thawing process as soon as a warming trend is discovered, you need an expert to study the process in order to make sure the warming isn't temporary or everyone will just die a few years after they're thawed.
Clyne's solution: Put these experts in a virtual reality system that allows them to connect to the monitoring equipment and make certain when it's the right time to thaw.

Major problem 3: A mind in cyro sleep is fully frozen and asleep. Its not possible for that mind to connect to the virtual world, and Clyne didn't have time to figure out a solution to that problem.
Clyne's solution: Make brain scans of a few individuals, paste those into The Matrix, and then copy/paste those scans back into the brain when the program was done.

Thus you have the 600 people connected to the Ark. Their primary purpose was to provide a framework for monitoring the temperature and telling when it would be safe to thaw the rest of the world. As a secondary purpose, Clyne thought it would make sense to teach the non-scientists the survival, engineering, and other skills needed to rebuild the planet's infrastructure after everyone was thawed. This makes sense, because the 8 billion inhabitants of the planet would starve to death when they woke up 500 years in the future with no surviving buildings or farms or so on. Unfortunately, Clyne's plan for accomplishing this secondary objective was incredibly half assed and really speaks to his inability to consider the small details of a problem. As expected of the CEO of a big company.

[Cranky Kong]

Clyne is brilliant, and frankly: right. 4 out of 5 people (haru, stella, phoenix, and azar) had disastrous responses when they found out that the machine creates a separate sentient entity. Stella has a panic attack within moments of not being able to "log out" on time. Haru declined to partake in the project, but provides no alternatives even when their underground facility was already freezing over and they clearly were out of time. admittedly, this is fine on a minor scale, but clyne is already facing the prospect of having only 600 people with which to re-inhabit thawed earth, and can't afford shortsighted losses like that. PM azar completely loses his marbles and literally chooses *infinite horrible punishment* which incidentally ends up punishing lucy too, given that lucy never at any point enjoyed her role as the girl of prophecy, unlike how the investigators all enjoyed their virtual lives within the loop. she even had terrible experiences through most of her loops and became emotionally deadened. that's all predictable even while PM azar is building the loopworld, but he's too rage-filled to spare her a thought. and phoenix fell into an uncontrollable rage and destroyed all the equipment the project needed to succeed.

In contrast, Clyne, (all clynes, digital and real) understand the situation and are rational enough to accept the outcome. this is completely independent of clyne's position, whether the virtual self slated for deletion, or the real clyne reawakened. the digital one's said "yep, i am a sentient digital entity, mission complete, system working as intended, please delete me now." He is a perfect, selfless exemplar of the golden rule. for clyne, an answer is right because it is right, and that answer does not change whether it falls against clyne himself or against someone else. for some reason, most people do not have that rational capacity, they tend to react closer to the way stella reacts. Clyne clearly considers the morality of creating sentient entities who may not react rationally. Given time, it's obvious he would just tell everyone and then replace whoever left the ark project with people who were rational enough to accept it. but he didn't have time. and he didn't have extra people to fill the gaps of anyone who might short-sightedly withdraw from the project.

the betrayer must be haru (only haru and clyne know) who told phoenix, who went along with the betrayers sick plan to goad a selfless soul into becoming PM before revealing this truth. Phoenix's gullibility is the single greatest cause of suffering in this story. making her a genetic superhuman mega-genius doesn't really fit with her blatant mental inadequacy.

Nothing says ice, or the survival of the humans, is necessary for the continuance of the virtual world. we can assume there is only limited fuel/electricity though and since phoenix destroyed the robot, they can't exactly produce more. so azar continuing his own virtual world is just a pretty reasonable "better them than us" approach. from his position as PM, he literally can't save any lives, he can either trade 601 (if he doesn't clone himself) virtual lives for 599 corporeal lives or just continue preserving the 601 including himself, and neglect to rescue the frozen corporeal humans. (the discrepancies are because of the dead guy from early ark revolts- and stella became two virtual lives).

but yes, the virtual entities got to live for what, a few thousand years? it would certainly be nice of them to just give their lives and let the humans wake up. don't see how they're obligated to do so though.

Lastly, by keeping this information hidden, he allows all participants to remain guiltless. He is far and away the most moral character, no one else comes close.

[Sunwave]

Originally posted by MeowMeow:

ah about azar/master, he is not stupid, and he is not THAT selfish.

HE IS ANGRY, thats whole reason on why this endavour happened. He is angry theyre being created to be a sacrificial lamb for the real world people.

Azar/PM is angry, so he (Azar/PM) takes it out on completely unrelated people (99% of the real humans), while FAILING to save the ones he (Azar/not PM) claims he's saving (99% of the avatars because the Ark will fail soon anyway). That is VERY selfish. And he's had 150+ years to think about it too.

PS: The teleportation example is not applicable, because that's both in the real world. You can "encounter" yourself if you don't delete the other. There would be a problem for both of you. I wouldn't want this.
In the avatar example, you are both living in a different world (real/virtual). That's exactly why I wouldn't have a problem with this scenario. You can not interfere with each other or encounter each other by accident (and people won't mix you up).

[MeowMeow]

Originally posted by Sunwave:

Originally posted by MeowMeow:

ah about azar/master, he is not stupid, and he is not THAT selfish.

HE IS ANGRY, thats whole reason on why this endavour happened. He is angry theyre being created to be a sacrificial lamb for the real world people.

Azar/PM is angry, so he (Azar/PM) takes it out on completely unrelated people (99% of the real humans), while FAILING to save the ones he (Azar/not PM) claims he's saving (99% of the avatars because the Ark will fail soon anyway). That is VERY selfish. And he's had 150+ years to think about it too.

PS: The teleportation example is not applicable, because that's both in the real world. You can "encounter" yourself if you don't delete the other. There would be a problem for both of you. I wouldn't want this.
In the avatar example, you are both living in a different world (real/virtual). That's exactly why I wouldn't have a problem with this scenario. You can not interfere with each other or encounter each other by accident (and people won't mix you up).

did u read my example, if the teleportation didnt delete the 1st copy, its basically the same.
did u read the monkey head transplant theory? or the video i gave.
This dilemma alrd been in scientist community for quite long time, and being picked by some game dev recently, SOMA and chrono ark is one of them.
SAO alicization also run on same exact dilemme, but the anime doesnt cover it properly compare to novel, there is literally 2 differrent kirito in there, 1 is literal king and the other ur zoomer.

"In the avatar example, you are both living in a different world (real/virtual). That's exactly why I wouldn't have a problem with this scenario. You can not interfere with each other or encounter each other by accident (and people won't mix you up)."

That what u dont understand the whole time, most people would have their head explode doubting wether they real or not, the one who doesnt end up become ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like azar and phoenix, Cylne is an exeption, he is ur litearlly marie sue in this story.

All media that cover this topic, have people that ended in same position ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, thats the whole point with stella experiment recording in this game.

[MeowMeow]

Both avatar and real life person wouldve mentally ♥♥♥♥♥♥ if they knew what happend, lucy and chiyo looks normal in real life, because they alrd goes thru mental gymnastic in virtual world.

Cylne "have to" delete the avatar, its not even a question, by deleting avatar it save both irl and the avatar. The digital people doesnt have to doubt themself, and the IRL doesnt have to feel the PTSD. Why the irl would goes to PTSD? because they have same exact experience.

[MeowMeow]

My point about azar is not "THAT" selfish is literally written there, the dude literally try to find backdoor solution to let the digital occoupant survived, but somehow even with master access its not possible, just to do this he gave up his life and make another clone instead, he doesnt just delete phoenix and lucy aswell, he gave them multiple option. Its not about HIM vs THE WORLD, its about digital people vs the real life people. He is angry yes, but its not for him, its for the digital people. If he was THAT selfish, he wouldnt honour lucy sacrifice at the end, it was azar that pull the trigger to let the world survived at the end.

lemme ask u, if ure a leader of a country A, and there is another country B let say went throu nuclear winter, its either ur country A survived another 100 years on burrowed time or the other country B survived literally, what would u do?
sounds easy from outside perspective, country B. But do u think the people from country A would just accept like that without any fight?

[Pingularity]

It's more that Program Master is understandably spiteful.
The purpose for his entire existence is to cultivate a society of 600+ people who have been forced hardship, for hundreds to thousands of simulated years - only to then have to kill them all so their knowledge is transferred into their physical masters.

Its a closed system that not even he can fully control, clyne designed the killswitch with that in mind. There is no way for Program Master to save his digital world. He's not going to help clyne, why would he help the man who manipulated them to create their hell?

The loop is him hijacking a defence mechanism to create a flawed looping isekai world for everyone. Not a heaven sure, but one that gives what people wished for, besides Clyne.
When he is waked up by his rogue copy, he learns that no progress had really been made. So he would rather destroy it all in spite, because everyone he knows and loves is going to die in either outcome. After lucy beats him the first time, he calms down enough to make an alternative- an actual heaven for one life, or to foolishly continue to die in vain for the sake of copies of you (Because the physicals are just clones to the replikas perspective).
And reminder, its him who activates the killswitch in the end, finally seeing that a legacy in memory is the way they will live on (understanding that from him being stabbed by his own creation's sword) after Lucy and co are willing to sacrifice themselves just for a chance to continue life past them.

Everything about him is emotionally living in the present, for the present. The antithesis of clyne.

[salutes inddoors]

Wow, good replies. It clears a few things up for me, even though the avatar-deletion thing seems an unnecessary plot-driving device, given the avatars have almost no means of interfacing with the outside world.

After reading all these responses, I'm left wondering a few things, particularly about PM Azar's point of view, that I wish had been addressed in the story.
1. Did he not have any memory or sympathy for his real-space self at all? I think most people would, but he does put down his clone with impunity, so maybe Azar is just different when it comes to himself.
2. Does death bother him, or not? Why is it that accepting permanent sleep (death) is more palatable when it is done to spite your original self rather than the revive him?
3. Gratitude. Would he rather have never existed at all?
4. I think it's well agreed that he is angry at the notion of "being trapped for thousands of years just to be deleted at the end for the benefit of our creators". It would have been really interesting to hear his thoughts on mortality in the real world; The world where there is no proscribed purpose or uniting goal for humanity. The world where most people spend much of their time producing widgets and fritter away the remainder on something of little "meaning". The world where living to 80 is pretty darn good, and there is no guarantee of any sort of afterlife or creator. Considering all this, would it not seem consistent with his character that real-life Azar should've desired to render the entirety of the human race extinct in order to protest how unfair death is (and what, to spite God?)

Another question which has been bothering me: if the purpose of the simulation was primarily to teach skills and monitor the outside world, why is it running at a speed comparable to real-time? If the sim is running at let's say 240 ticks per second in an attempt to simulate reality, why not slow it down so each second in the virtual world is a month or a year in reality? That way you would still have years to pick up practical skills (why they didn't invite people into the project who already possessed those is not really clear to me, either) without trapping the digital avatars into thousands of years of simulation.

[Sunwave]

I did read your explanations (not the video). They're the same. The whole concept is very simple, as you adressed in your final line:
- It's copy paste, not cut paste.
I understand this. ONLY for the copy it seems like everything is fine, but the original has bad experience. I also understand you're trying to say the "avatars" in Ark would have this bad experience, because they can't leave.
What I am saying is that rather than cut-paste, copy-paste WOULD be better, because then AT LEAST they would be able to live (if only in the matrix), instead of being sacrificed.

Azar has no problem (okay, maybe some) with not being able to go to reality.
He has a problem with being deleted. THAT is the part that brings him despair.
At least, that's how I remember it.

I'm not commenting on Clyne anymore. He has his in-game reasons. I don't agree with his conclusion if I had the same data.

PS: SOMA does it correctly, but explains it incorrectly. [They claim there is a "coin toss" when there never is. The original is ALWAYS going to be disappointed. The copy will ALWAYS be the one with the unbroken experience. Also the MC is a complete tool, but at least he has the excuse of having literal brain damage from the car accident.[/spoiler]

[MeowMeow]

No, SOMA explained it is correctly, u just didnt get the dilemma and the methaphor.
To the one that didnt get transported its always 100% a loss cause, but to the one that get transported its LOOKS LIKE 50/50 coin toss, in their experience they won 50/50, because they alrd experiencing doing the coin toss.
Its similiar to most dilemma and paradox.

I mean, u saw stelle experiment record right?
Cylne need to address that, he has to. The easiest solution is literally making it Cut-Paste.

What happend to azar and phoenix is copy paste, they remember who they are and knew they are copy because of the betrayer(not phoenix/ azar). And because that exact COPY PASTE, they went b@tshit.

Sure cylne could built new ecosystem, train the digital copy from bottom up, but thats the whole plot, they dont have time for that, the world is dying and they are on deadlines.
If he had time for that, they would make babies AI and parenting them on digital instead of making copy as a monitoring system, thats was the solution given on SAO alicization, the inhabitan could accept who they are and still doing what they were told. The COPY cant do that.

[MeowMeow]

Originally posted by Sunwave:

Azar has no problem (okay, maybe some) with not being able to go to reality.
He has a problem with being deleted. THAT is the part that brings him despair.
At least, that's how I remember it. [/spoiler]

I mean it not just azar alone, look lucy went despair when she knew she couldnt go to real world, the other investigator also went thru same thing when being shown the reality. The only reason lucy still fighting was the same reason leader or princess that being saved by their people do, She only fighting so their effort wouldnt goes to waste. Otherwise she wouldnt even bother fighting azar. She was agreeing with azar.

Stelle experiment record is exactly that, the copy is still alive btw and she couldnt accept not being able to get out. It was COPY PASTE, and FAILED.

Sure azar might not goes as hard, but something similiar will happen regardless they delete it or not, the plot might change a bit, but it will happen eventually.
Maybe this time it phoenix who went batsh1t and azar as her 2nd hand, maybe it takes azar few thousands loops before he reach same conclusion.

Cylne solution is almost perfect if it werent for the "Betrayer", the digital inhabitant and irl counterpart could live an innocent/ignorant live.
I really think they wrote the last part much better because, it cover all the motive and plot, but the ealier part is a shame they dropped the betrayer plot, because those were the real culprit. Same plot will happen even if u change the one who got to kept their memories.

[SufferNot]

Originally posted by Eater of Cabbage (Barrelbrained):

Another question which has been bothering me: if the purpose of the simulation was primarily to teach skills and monitor the outside world, why is it running at a speed comparable to real-time? If the sim is running at let's say 240 ticks per second in an attempt to simulate reality, why not slow it down so each second in the virtual world is a month or a year in reality? That way you would still have years to pick up practical skills (why they didn't invite people into the project who already possessed those is not really clear to me, either) without trapping the digital avatars into thousands of years of simulation.

Part of the purpose is monitoring the freezing phenomenon. They need scientists observing the weather to accurately determine when the earth is thawing for real so they don't thaw in a particularly warm summer and then freeze to death later that year. Phoenix discovers one of those fake thaws during their experience alone. Slowing down the perception of the inhabitants would probably mess with their ability to observe the weather accurately. Even if it doesn't, since Clyne doesn't know how long the freeze will last, it doesn't make sense to turn a 500 year wait into a 1000 year wait.

There's also the ethics of the technology. Everyone else thinks its their real consciousness in the Ark. if you mess with tick rate, questions will start to be asked and the smarter scientists might figure out Clyne's lie. His lie relies on continuity of memory, of everyone thinking that they are the real person and not a copy so they won't go crazy like Haru or Stella.

Now, follow up question, why did Clyne provide no training materials for the citizens? Silverstein is underground in the mines punching rocks like its Minecraft because no one provided any substantive training courses, and that stuff could have been downloaded into the Ark from Youtube or something. I understand the idea of not giving the citizens a vacation or super powers so they'll stay motivated and won't grow used to those powers for when the thaw happens, but you don't gotta completely cut them off from all resources and support. Provide some training and comforts and ease them into the work they'll be doing for potentially hundreds of years. The project fails in under a year because Clyne runs the civilians like a tech bro CEO would manage an offshore sweatshop.

Which I don't really consider a plot hole. Clyne's the CEO, not the president or a middle manager or a team lead or so on. It isn't his job to handle the small details like training courses and living conditions and worker's rights and etc, so of course he messes that up.