Some thoughts on Blood Mist.

[Apolloncrash]

I made a thread a while ago (prior to v1.7's release) asking people how they felt about the game's difficulty at the time. Now I'd like to do the same again, but with more of a specific focus on the implementation of the Blood Mist system.

So, for some context, I do consider myself pretty good at the game; before Blood Mist dropped I had literally just stopped losing entirely and so I was really excited at the prospect of being challenged by it again... but with it maxed out I still win 90+% of the time. I'm left feeling that the effects are just not big enough to really matter, which is disappointing.

I'll try to break down my thoughts by level:

BM1 - The extra health is mostly relevant in two ways. Firstly, it can narrow your ability to one-tap non-tanks without a heavy hitter skill, but needing to throw in an extra AoE/Hollowed Sword/whatever rarely makes any difference to the outcome. Second, it might make end bosses take an extra turn or two if you have a low-medium damage output build. I'll go more into this later, but basically you can usually ignore this bit.

As for the price increases, I just don't care. At all. I can still almost always buy the 1-3 things I actually want in the shop, usually a key+skill book and/or a lifting scroll, and have enough float left to buy the odd big ticket item when they show up. Maybe if more than like 5% of combats were any threat to 95% of builds, or they brought back stat potions, either of which could make buying potions more frequently a serious consideration, this might matter, but as it stands it's basically irrelevant.

I guess I'll just lump the relic bonuses together here. I have mixed feelings here; it is cool getting to play with the different relics more, but there are quite a few extremely powerful ones and with so many chances to draft them they'll usually offset a decent amount of the difficulty that Blood Mist offers.

BM2 - Having to have a thicker deck really sucks, especially for someone like me who tends to value consistency very highly, but being able to draft three copies of staples can more than cancel that out and I'd argue makes for more consistent and powerful builds on average. Oh, and the free skill books minimize the short term burden of being saddled with extra basics too.

Whilst cursed encounters are the main threat to most runs, I honestly forget this effect even exists most of the time and don't feel it's effects at all, so I guess it's not a huge deal?

Anyway, here we are. The Blood Mist curse. The clear cause of an overwhelming majority of Blood Mist mode's difficulty. Now, maybe it's wrong of me, but I've never even taken a regular curse, except for a couple of misclicks; a dead draw is just too debilitating in this game to justify the value the events give for them. This draw dampening is the main reason the Blood Mist card is brutal, but a poorly timed Burly Shield or Stun can sometimes also just end a run. I really wish the other Blood Mist mode modifiers would be brought up to a similarly detrimental level. Instead though, they kind of did the opposite and added the Awaken effect to the curse, significantly reducing it's threat, which I'll admit irked me somewhat.

BM3 - The second curse is good, but all the first effect does is stop infinites. I guess? Imo, that is not at all the issue with the game's balance. Infinites exist, but they are not even really a factor in why the game is as easy as it is. As far as I am concerned, the single biggest problem is the ease of access the player has to absurd damage output. For example, dropping a Dancing Sword, then just creating a few Hollowed Swords and playing a pair of Ascending Slices will instantly kill most bosses. Or simply dropping a juiced up Overcharged Shot. Or, you know, just having Ilya on your team. Or...

Also, I can't fathom why would I ever choose Damage Sharing. It's not a huge deal, but it could potentially turn a close fight into a loss, whereas Pain Stacking... doesn't do anything? If a character has fainted, one way or another the fight will be likely over very soon, probably before you even draw the Blood Mists. It took me quite a while to figure out exactly what it was even doing. Perhaps the Blood Mists should be permanent like I'd originally assumed they would be?

BM4 - I'll be honest, I was a little scared when I first read this effect, but in practice? Surprisingly, I have literally never died to the extra boss. It turns out that if a run can't beat two it probably won't beat one either. It doesn't help that Pharos Queen is literally free 100% of the time, so you actually only have a 1/3 chance of fighting two real bosses. Not to harp on this, but I'm flabbergasted the devs haven't reworked her yet. She is actually the only non first floor boss that I've never died to a single time. Even Sir Dorchi and the tank have gotten me once each (though, if you're reading this devs, please significantly buff them too, they really need it).

The Golden Skillbook helps a lot going forward too, and further emphasises the weirdness of White Graveyard typically being more difficult than Sanctuary.

In conclusion, whilst I appreciative the devs trying to give us more hardcore players a bone, I feel the game is still far, far too easy when you know what you're doing and that the effects of Blood Mist are nowhere near harsh or spread out enough. I'm not properly keeping track, but I'd estimate that I'm currently on a 15ish BM4 win streak, and that makes me a little sad. Unfortunately, I honestly feel it will probably be difficult for the devs to do much about it though, even if they wanted to, unless they do a serious balance pass over the characters, since that is the primary root of the problem.

So, what are everyone else's thoughts on the matter?

[Kymedorf]

I mostly like it. The stun blood mist at the wrong time can end the run just like that and blood mists are the biggest threats but I disagree on some counts.

BM1 cost increase does change my choices a lot of time. It also makes experimenting with bought scrolls less rewarding. HP is definitely the harsher part though. Some investigators don't seem to deal very well with increased HP if they don't get the items, but that's fine

When it comes to BM3, I always take Damage Sharing actually. It can easily be an upside, especially if you run aggressive Hein and/or Soul Stigma. I usually use aggressively Hein's merciless that would kill him without the sharing, or fun stuff like merciless into drunkenness with +1 discard cast that would otherwise be very lethal to Hein, but is just an inconvenience with it. Even without Hein and Charon, I like knowing the boss can't just randomly crit twice and remove a character. It's nice and allows me to play more aggressive. It can make the situation worse, especially if I overextend, but only rarely. I prefer this one, I consider it a nice, comfy safety net.

I mostly agree on BM4, but that can absolutely end a run. Karaela stuns two, successfully applies her debuff on everyone, then blood mist restuns a guy I've just removed the CC from, and of course Karaela stuns two more soon after is a scenario that does happen, or Reaper with bad draws and/or his and fog stuns. The likelihood of that happening is higher at BM4 than it's without it, so it is a risk. It is admittedly a risk that is absolutely worth taking with very nice rewards, but the increased danger of above situation randomly occurring is on my mind.

I fully agree that Pharos Leader is extremely easy, it requires very bad luck or big mistakes to die to him

[Apolloncrash]

Originally posted by Kymedorf:

BM1 cost increase does change my choices a lot of time. It also makes experimenting with bought scrolls less rewarding.

With scrolls, in my experience, I usually get either a lifting or purification by the end of the second floor (AKA, when you start to need them), and if not, I'm fine spending a few hundred to basically guarantee it. Once that's found, honestly, I put very little value in any other scroll, and have no issue just wasting them on first use, especially with identification effects being in such a weird place after the potion rework.

Originally posted by Kymedorf:

HP is definitely the harsher part though. Some investigators don't seem to deal very well with increased HP if they don't get the items, but that's fine

Maybe I build particularly aggressively or something, but this hasn't been my experience at all. Sure, say, for example, my default opening with Sizz of one-shotting a threat with a fixed Incise might not work quite as often any more, but I could just throw a Hollowed Sword at it before passing Eve over to Azar for the follow-up. In this situation I'm down a Hollowed Sword, but I'm also effectively up an Eve stack. Or maybe I have a weaker setup; instead of Azar, I have Miss Chain. Maybe after the BM1 buff keeps the threat alive I throw out a Playing With Fire to finish it off, which isn't a terrible move often anyway, since you frequently don't get to massively pop off turn one with this opening anyway and it will often soften enemies up just enough to let you effectively, if not literally, win on the crackback with your fleshed out turn 2 hand and newly amped Eve.

Originally posted by Kymedorf:

I usually use aggressively Hein's merciless that would kill him without the sharing, or fun stuff like merciless into drunkenness with +1 discard cast that would otherwise be very lethal to Hein, but is just an inconvenience with it.

I'll admit that sounds pretty cool. I very rarely recruit Hein so that thought never crossed my mind. I do always recruit Ilya no matter what though, so I guess it's on me for never experimenting with Drunkenness.

Originally posted by Kymedorf:

...The likelihood of that happening is higher at BM4 than it's without it, so it is a risk.

This is true, but I just find that the likelihood is low enough as to not matter. RNG killing you with an actually unavoidable chain of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is super, super rare, especially if you've managed to keep a good stock of items. I'm positive the extra boss will get me sooner or later, but I just don't think BM4, on average, actually makes the game meaningfully harder. The Parade Tank might have killed me that one time I bottom decked all my healing cards, but that doesn't mean it is realistically an actual threat to respect.

Originally posted by Kymedorf:

I fully agree that Pharos Leader is extremely easy, it requires very bad luck or big mistakes to die to him

Hilariously, I'll slightly disagree with your agreement. I'm not convinced that even the worst possible luck could make that fight losable, there are just too many different ways to trivialize it spread across too many characters. If I play long enough I could maybe, maybe see losing to her personally someday, but I don't realistically think an actually optimal player ever would, regardless off what characters, skill or items they were offered, even if the RNG in the fight was rigged to be as far in the bosses favour as possible. Well, 98% maximum accuracy excepted I guess, lol.

[Vengyr]

Extra health can be brutal early on, where you might not have your premium dps skills/any dps gear. Especially against the witch since it affects her disproportionately (see the other thread). Also it's annoying to have the first phase of TFK to be extra long.

I do always recruit Ilya no matter what though, so I guess it's on me for never experimenting with Drunkenness.

That explains why you have no issues with the witch, haha.

Whilst cursed encounters are the main threat to most runs, I honestly forget this effect even exists most of the time and don't feel it's effects at all, so I guess it's not a huge deal?

It's the most annoying for the CW. Absolutely need to carry a scroll for that executioner sniper. If you don't go for the CW, I agree.

I also always pick Pain Stacking. I also initially thought that you'd get permanent Blood Mist whenever someone faints, but it's temporary, so... it's a nothingburger? Damage Sharing turns the double crit into whole party at death door, which does not sound good, although it might be not so bad on practice. But Pain Stacking literally never matters (hell, I've even 3-manned TFK with it and it didn't matter much).

Double boss could be annoying *if* Pharos Leader would be harder. Even with bad matchups like Solar Flare Helia it's never a problem.

Getting Karaela -> Reaper can be painful. Karaela is significantly harder than the other two, and sometimes may cause a faint. This makes Reaper fight much harder (Pharos Leader not so much). But it's 1 in 6, because even Reaper -> Karaela is not a problem, Reaper is easy with 4 characters.

[goombasolini]

I always have seen Blood Mist more like "high risk / high reward system" rather than direct difficulty enhancer. Literally every mechanic added by Blood mist can help you aside from Price and HP incerase. For instance more cursed enemies = more gold, more skills come with you being able to have more duplicates [it reminds me how one Steam Workshop character - Roland - promotes having DIFFERENT CARDS to buff his rare skill up the sky] and even blood mist curse has now small chance to help you! (the awakening mode).

The damage sharing especially is helpful to me since now im sure my team wont crumble due to my DPS being sniped (aggro incerase is not always reliable. Also crits exist).

There are surely some thing that can harm you (double cursed enemy can be brutal and 25% HP incerase is nail-biting sometimes at earlier stages) but you get relics instead and playing with them is always fun. I still remember early builds when getting more than 1 relic was not common...

Besides, the real difficulty spikes are new bosses (second final boss is way harder than first for me and third one will propably be even harder) and new biome that puts you against boss arguably harder at time than white graveyard ones. Who knows, maybe there will be ascencion system in the future too, so more difficulty options? The difficulty is really fine so far, no worries.

[kome360]

Get Ilya. Keep playing until you get him the rare skill Heavenly Thunder and an 'unlucky' roll with the upgrade cube, and mod the Heavenly Thunder card with the [Discard After Ending Turn] downgrade.
What happens is that the card isn't removed from your deck at the end of the turn. It charges every time it is discarded - not exchanged, discarded in some other way - and now you have an easy way of charging this. Every. Single. Turn.
Then, it's just a matter of drawing the card as fast as possible, followed by an endurance trial of charging your as long as possible. When you can no longer endure a boss fight, unleash the card and your enemies will melt.

[Forra]

As a mediocre player making decent headway (who just beat Blood Mist 4 finally), I can only say this feels like having my nose rubbed in it. You're clearly a lot better than I am, and Blood Mist feels like well-balanced extra challenge for me, with its more brutal and unfair-feeling elements offset by the fun of getting to watch multiple relics ping.

[Pars'd / 2]

I have no idea how you guys are never dying on Pharos Leader, because I've lost more runs to her than Reaper. I usually have an easier time with him. Granted, I always start with random investigators, so I've gotten several runs where I get Pharos Leader and don't have enough damage and/or the person with damage skills in hand gets obedience'd and I literally can't hit them. I also lost a run to her when Final Leaf Slash missed; I didn't even know that could happen. Ironically, I've never died to Dorchi or the Tank, even on a run where I had 4 attackers.

The extra cursed encounter is super noticeable for me since it means an extra chance to have a Marauding horse to hit my Ilya 4 times and end the run. I'm still salty about that.

For BM3, I always choose damage sharing since it's saved more of my runs from random bs that would normally faint someone than I'd like to admit. Like on Pharos Leader when I had to hit someone for 50 then I learned Eve will also hit that person, or on Pharos Leader, when I learned that Reorganize copies the hitting your party debuff. Or when a cursed snow golem hit my attacker for 30 twice & he had the pain debuff from the Deathbringer. Also, apparently Eve hitting Karaela's shield damages Sizz, almost lost a run to that.

[windypanda1]

No need for Absolute Defense nerf, it's been nerfed a lot already.

0 Cost Swiftness, blocks all attacks ->
1 Cost Swiftness, blocks attacks 4 times for each character

As for my opinion on Blood Mist, I always play it and I've gotten used to its changes at this point, but I think it's not the best highest difficulty that the game could have, for many reasons:

1. The HP bloat ruins DPS balance.
The +25% HP makes some DPS characters way harder to pilot than others. For example, Hein and Silverstein feel very neutered compared to non-BM where they can perform well. In contrast, characters like Azar and Trisha feel relatively unaffected.

2. The Blood Mist curse is unfun.
Dead draw + negative effect saps away momentum from an otherwise good turn. The best you can do in preparation is carry around some lifting scrolls and tablets to avoid run-ending scenarios.

3. It's not that difficult all in all.
Sure it's gonna give you some headache but experienced players are still going to win almost every time. The jump from BM levels are not very high. If you can beat BM1 you can beat BM4.

Personally, I'd prefer if the BM levels increased the number of cursed encounters and bosses you need to fight per stage, as well as introducing some harder enemy patterns. (similar to ExpertPlusMod)

[Vengyr]

+1 to harder enemy patterns. It's understandable that it'd require much more effort to balance them, but having harder bosses in particular not in a numerical way, but in extra mechanics way would make it more interesting.