What's with the rollback elitism in the fighting game space?

[Momo Velia Deviluke]

Not trying to denounce the quality of rollback netcode (not that I've experienced it myself; it needs to be on ALL platforms please, not SOME - cough cough BBTAG). But I don't understand the attitude behind it. You won't play Omnia or Ultimax or whatever, not even their single player modes (Ultimax in particular has a lot of story content), just because no rollback netcode? Seriously?

I personally don't play fighting games online that much and tend to stick to the single player stuff. I'll be buying Omnia on PS4 (where I don't have a PS+ sub) and Ultimax on Switch.

I know this isn't gonna be popular. I don't care.

[TotemMX]

I dont know how good is the netcode in this game. The thing with delay-based netcode is the inconsistency in matches and how bad it handles desync and packet loss (missing inputs due high latency or WiFi inconsistency).

My experience with delay-based netcode is mixed.

In Dragon Ball FighterZ I have nice matches most of the time since 2019. ASW has solid both delay-based netcode and rollback netcode for their games (they have expertise in that area right now). It helps that game has a nice amount of players all time/days.

On the other hand... CyberConnect2 has a below average netcode, making the online horrible for most of users (Australia and SEA users mainly). In Demon Slayer the game cant handle desync and when it happends you play against CPU (in ranked or casual matches!). It doesnt help that game has low population right now.

TL;DR Rollback Netcode is better, but a nice delay-based netcode is playable with a decent amount of players.

Min 15:43.
https://youtu.be/1RI5scXYhK0

[Momo Velia Deviluke]

Originally posted by MoonShrine:

For your sentences about "not even playing for singleplayer content?", some if not most fighting game players play for multiplayer only.

I know that, but I mostly added that to reinforce the point I was making. If a fighting game is really good - loads of content, fighting's great, story's great, the whole nine - but it DOESN'T have rollback, you're really not gonna play it JUST because of no rollback? (I'm again speaking to the "Rollback or nothing" people, not you specifically)

Honestly I think it's kind of sad that people are canceling their P4AU preorders just because no rollback at launch (or at all, in the Switch version's case).

I would also like to remind you that P4A back when it first came out converted some members of the FGC into proper Persona fans, that's how good the story was.

Of course, I come from a time when there was no online and all there was was loads of content, some of it you have to unlock by playing the game.

[TotemMX]

Originally posted by MoonShrine:

Devs gave there reason and I think it's reasonable. I trust there message that they heavily looked into it and couldn't find it realistically possible.

Is a lame excuse... let me [re]translate the real problem:

“Regarding Rollback Netcode in Phantom Breaker: Omnia.

Since the beginning of this project, Rocket Panda Games and I have had several discussions regarding implemation in PBO, [but we came to the conclusion that they will buy it, even if some complain].

However, because the game was based on Phantom Breaker: Extra’s existing source code, preserving the game’s essence while implementing rollback netcode would have meant building the game from scratch [we using the same game engine and its easier this way].

This would have been impossible to implement rollback netcode with the resources we had at the onset of this project. [cost a lot]. Our final choices came down to releasing PBO without rollback or not releasing PBO at all.

I am very aware of the demand for rollback netcode among the overseas fighting game fans, which made the decision all the more painful. Nevertheless, we are making all of the more realistic improvements to the game that we can bring you the experience possible within our means. On behalf of the entire team, I thank you all for your understanding.”

[Momo Velia Deviluke]

Originally posted by MoonShrine:

Originally posted by TotemMX:

-snip-

I don't think they have the budget for it yea and or see it worth while for the cost. I think that's a legitimate reason.

Or it could just be laziness factor on the part of the developer. As outlined in the above video, with some Japanese developers (and from what I understand, RPG is one), either it's too much work/money for RPG to add rollback, or they have the mindset of "Delay works well in Japan, why should we bother with adding rollback?"

As much I love that there's English audio, I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who wished that the money put towards that went instead to rollback.

[Rhythmless Ninja]

Originally posted by Kurumi Tokisaki:

Not trying to denounce the quality of rollback netcode (not that I've experienced it myself; it needs to be on ALL platforms please, not SOME - cough cough BBTAG). But I don't understand the attitude behind it. You won't play Omnia or Ultimax or whatever, not even their single player modes (Ultimax in particular has a lot of story content), just because no rollback netcode? Seriously?

I personally don't play fighting games online that much and tend to stick to the single player stuff. I'll be buying Omnia on PS4 (where I don't have a PS+ sub) and Ultimax on Switch.

I know this isn't gonna be popular. I don't care.

Until Locals/Tourneys that are in person become a common thing again. Rollback is essential. And even when this happens it should still be the standard now as it should have been the moment it came into existence. Not buying it tells them we have quality standards when it comes to basic functions in a fighter. You're free to buy the game but don't for a second think less of anyone for wanting a quality online experience in a highly competitive genre.

TLDR; Yes, seriously.

[Excel Excel]

To hell with rollback! Give me some more online modes! Where's my ArcSys Player Lobbies, Tag Team mode and Tournament mode?! I can't believe in this day and age, fighting game developers can't adventure out of their safe spot. Just wait for the new installment to get rollback, no point in asking, since they say the code is so damn old.

[Celestial Lexi]

delay based netcode design only for japan region play

rollback designed for GLOBAL play

[Josef]

The FGC has had enough of these Japanese companies that only make netcode for Japan.

It's a shame that it took a worldwide pandemic for some of these companies to finally see that delay based netcode is a huge issue.

Most million/billion dollar companies refuse to invest $$$ in rollback netcode because it costs money, i'm looking at you bandai namco, we've had enough.

That's why we go fk this game and others that don't have rollback.

Just because billy doesn't play fighting games online doesn't mean that the quality of the netcode should be ignored.

Also, even modern games don't have enough singleplayer content, look at kof xv and tell me how much singleplayer content does it have for $60. Also, tell me how much singleplayer content is included in their expensive season passes.

[buypolar pop]

"I personally don't play fighting games online that much and tend to stick to the single player stuff. I'll be buying Omnia on PS4 (where I don't have a PS+ sub) and Ultimax on Switch."-OP
you answered you own question. ♥♥♥ devs need to get with the times and stop making $h!tty pc ports and have stable online. This isnt the arcade anymore

[uraizen]

I'll just scan the thread and address it all honestly. I'm old and come from a time where unlocking characters was the norm too. I hated it because I just wanted to pop the game in and play with friends. I still feel the same and only touch the MP unless I'm forced to play the SP. I also feel that the money that went toward dubbing the game would have been better spent adding rollback.

Having answered all that, there's more to adding rollback than just money. The devs working on it have to be capable of doing so in the first place. Using an old engine isn't an excuse. If you can't do it then you pay someone else to do it for you. This is what happened with +R and BBCF. They reached out to fans already working on it and struck up a deal. Not sure about BBTAG or P4U2. What is a good excuse is the butt load of platforms they're bringing the game to and what they would need to do assuming the solution isn't platform agnostic. That would be a lot of money, time, and talent of varying skill sets.

People will still choose to buy the game based on their own reasons. Some games are genuinely unplayable without it depending on where you live. Some just want the best experience possible. People like me would never touch the SP. I'm lucky enough to have people that live close enough to me to play with delay-based. So I will be buying it and hope the delay-based netcode is good enough. I can probably give a tl;dr when I'm less groggy.

[Aqua Snake]

Originally posted by Kurumi Tokisaki:

Originally posted by MoonShrine:

For your sentences about "not even playing for singleplayer content?", some if not most fighting game players play for multiplayer only.

I know that, but I mostly added that to reinforce the point I was making. If a fighting game is really good - loads of content, fighting's great, story's great, the whole nine - but it DOESN'T have rollback, you're really not gonna play it JUST because of no rollback? (I'm again speaking to the "Rollback or nothing" people, not you specifically)

Honestly I think it's kind of sad that people are canceling their P4AU preorders just because no rollback at launch (or at all, in the Switch version's case).

I would also like to remind you that P4A back when it first came out converted some members of the FGC into proper Persona fans, that's how good the story was.

Of course, I come from a time when there was no online and all there was was loads of content, some of it you have to unlock by playing the game.

I think this may be a better way to put things into perspective.

Lets say the reverse happened. The game included Rollback, and decent amount of online multiplayer features, but didn't include virtually no single player content (Not even Arcade Mode).

As you stated that you're more fond of the Single Player content of Fighters, I think you would be upset and rightfully so.

Rollback Netcode in this case is like the equivalent value for those to value the Single Player Content more (For some who doesn't care for the single player content at all). Playing a Multiplayer focused game that plays like your underwater makes for a awful experience which at that point you're not even playing the game as it was intended.

Seeing how Persona 4 Ultimax is NOW implementing Rollback in the near future (Plus other companies like SNK) shows that some of these companies hear the feedback. So we would likely NOT be getting Rollback Netcode if it wasn't for the fan outcry.

[Momo Velia Deviluke]

Originally posted by Aqua Snake:

Originally posted by Kurumi Tokisaki:

I know that, but I mostly added that to reinforce the point I was making. If a fighting game is really good - loads of content, fighting's great, story's great, the whole nine - but it DOESN'T have rollback, you're really not gonna play it JUST because of no rollback? (I'm again speaking to the "Rollback or nothing" people, not you specifically)

Honestly I think it's kind of sad that people are canceling their P4AU preorders just because no rollback at launch (or at all, in the Switch version's case).

I would also like to remind you that P4A back when it first came out converted some members of the FGC into proper Persona fans, that's how good the story was.

Of course, I come from a time when there was no online and all there was was loads of content, some of it you have to unlock by playing the game.

I think this may be a better way to put things into perspective.

Lets say the reverse happened. The game included Rollback, and decent amount of online multiplayer features, but didn't include virtually no single player content (Not even Arcade Mode).

As you stated that you're more fond of the Single Player content of Fighters, I think you would be upset and rightfully so.

Rollback Netcode in this case is like the equivalent value for those to value the Single Player Content more (For some who doesn't care for the single player content at all). Playing a Multiplayer focused game that plays like your underwater makes for a awful experience which at that point you're not even playing the game as it was intended.

Seeing how Persona 4 Ultimax is NOW implementing Rollback in the near future (Plus other companies like SNK) shows that some of these companies hear the feedback. So we would likely NOT be getting Rollback Netcode if it wasn't for the fan outcry.

See: Street Fighter 5.

I remember that launch, and how miserable that was. Other than online (when the servers weren't being ♥♥♥♥), there was barely anything else to do. A 5 minute long "story" mode for each character, training, and I THINK Survival mode. No Arcade, no VS CPU, none of that.

Pretty much EVERYBODY was pissed, from the FGC pros to even casuals like myself.

I also remember Chaos Code, whose PS3 version didn't have online features at all.

And the other thing is (I may have mentioned it earlier), P4AU has story. A LOT of story; it's a Persona game. I would know, because I'm a Persona fan and I played P4A back when it first came out. (I own P4AU on PS3 as well but I believe PS4 was already out by that point, so I barely played it and didn't wanna keep my PS3 out) With all due respect I just don't agree with not buying a fighting game simply because no rollback, when games like P4AU or even T7 have a lot of content, and therefore other stuff you can do (or even if said games have rollback and can't get online due to an outage or whatever).

Also I want to see rollback on ALL platforms, not SOME platforms (looking at you, BBTAG and BBCF).

[Aqua Snake]

Originally posted by Kurumi Tokisaki:

Originally posted by Aqua Snake:

I think this may be a better way to put things into perspective.

Lets say the reverse happened. The game included Rollback, and decent amount of online multiplayer features, but didn't include virtually no single player content (Not even Arcade Mode).

As you stated that you're more fond of the Single Player content of Fighters, I think you would be upset and rightfully so.

Rollback Netcode in this case is like the equivalent value for those to value the Single Player Content more (For some who doesn't care for the single player content at all). Playing a Multiplayer focused game that plays like your underwater makes for a awful experience which at that point you're not even playing the game as it was intended.

Seeing how Persona 4 Ultimax is NOW implementing Rollback in the near future (Plus other companies like SNK) shows that some of these companies hear the feedback. So we would likely NOT be getting Rollback Netcode if it wasn't for the fan outcry.

See: Street Fighter 5.

I remember that launch, and how miserable that was. Other than online (when the servers weren't being ♥♥♥♥), there was barely anything else to do. A 5 minute long "story" mode for each character, training, and I THINK Survival mode. No Arcade, no VS CPU, none of that.

Pretty much EVERYBODY was pissed, from the FGC pros to even casuals like myself.

I also remember Chaos Code, whose PS3 version didn't have online features at all.

And the other thing is (I may have mentioned it earlier), P4AU has story. A LOT of story; it's a Persona game. I would know, because I'm a Persona fan and I played P4A back when it first came out. (I own P4AU on PS3 as well but I believe PS4 was already out by that point, so I barely played it and didn't wanna keep my PS3 out) With all due respect I just don't agree with not buying a fighting game simply because no rollback, when games like P4AU or even T7 have a lot of content, and therefore other stuff you can do (or even if said games have rollback and can't get online due to an outage or whatever).

Also I want to see rollback on ALL platforms, not SOME platforms (looking at you, BBTAG and BBCF).

I'm with you on that one. Despite my huge disappointment whether they don't add Rollback Netcode, I tend to get the game anyways since I want to support the Genre. Although I am contributing to the issues of them not adding Rollback.

[TotemMX]

Regardless your position on if having rollback should be a must or not. Soon or later, all japanese developers will need to implement Rollback Netcode to their game, so is better to start figure out now whats needed.

Almost all Wester Indie fighting games have Rollback Netcode and many Japanese Developers are adopting Rollback Netcode in their games nowdays (Capcom, ArcSys, SNK, French Bread). I dont see the point keep using Delay-based netcode in the future, since Rollback Netcode has figure out how to make online gameplay better.

I hope and the directors of this game realize that in the future they will not be able to continue with the same excuses.

[Ellye]

Simply no point in purchasing a fighting game I can't play online, for me.

Delay netcode isn't an option when the vast majority of the playerbase is not on my continent.