Owlcat should be embarrassed by the Crusade system

[Amoc]

I kept silent on this watching previews and beta footage thinking it was going to be better on release, but here we are today and Owlcat's somehow managed to deliver a management system that's even worse than Kingdom Management in Kingmaker.

I really didn't enjoy Kingmaker's management sim personally, but at least there I SORT OF understood why there might be people here and there that enjoyed it. It was sort of like a visual novel and it did add some flavor to the overall adventure and campaign seeing your kingdom grow visually and thematically.

This time, however, I see no redeeming qualities. This is just bad and Owlcat should be embarrassed they released it. The army battles are so brainlessly monotonous, and so incredibly shallow that I truly cannot understand how anyone would defend it other than as a general defense for the overall game itself. This is shameful.

[Amoc]

Originally posted by EasternTime:

Again, I don't want to say that the system is any good. I have my fun with it as a mini-game, but it gets old - there's not much in it. It's very shallow.
But you guys grossly exaggerate. It's not THAT horrible.

You've your head in the sand if you think we're exaggerating. The Crusade is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ horrible. It's not just bad. It's hilariously awful. If I couldn't mod it out or disable it I would have uninstalled the game already. This is coming from someone with around 1000 hours in Kingmaker but hated the Kingdom Management from that game too. The fact that Owlcat came up with an even worse minigame, and did so by such a huge margin, is an accomplishment.

The worst part is that I actually love Heroes of Might and Magic. THAT is a fun game and an ancient franchise with tried-and-true mechanics. Owlcat's Crusade system is a sad joke by comparison. It's not even 5% of the game that HoM&M is, so I can't understand why they thought it would be compelling.

[EasternTime]

Originally posted by Echo:

And, there'd be another huge chunk of them that are just mildly annoyed by the feature. It's no exaggeration / not unreasonable to suppose that it would be quite a lot of hate collectively speaking...

You know what? After some thinking I'm inclined to agree with you now. It doesn't matter how many people actually turned off crusade mechanics - 10% or 20%, it's still a large number of people. And it would be OK if they just didn't like it or it is not their type of fun. But even the people who likes it tell that the battle system is shallow and full of traps if you go in blind. That's what important here.
So I believe we should stop talking about statistics and try to estimate numbers and agree on that: crusade mechanics require a huge rework. What do you think?

Originally posted by Amoc:

You've your head in the sand if you think we're exaggerating. The Crusade is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ horrible. It's not just bad. It's hilariously awful.

Please tell me. What makes you hate it this much?
I see a bunch of generic words and emotions in this post and I can't understand why exactly you're upset. Do you think developers would? Is this how you want to deliver your message?
Please be more polite.

[Amoc]

Originally posted by EasternTime:

[
I see a bunch of generic words and emotions in this post and I can't understand why exactly you're upset. Do you think developers would? Is this how you want to deliver your message?
Please be more polite.

I mean, you could literally say that about any critique/opinion. "I see a BuNCH of GenERIc WoRDs". That's a trite and facile response.

I don't really think you need to have the criticism on the crusade explained any further. There's so much criticism out there that you're being a bit disingenuous saying you don't understand it.

As for actual explanations, let's go over a list of all the lousy features:

1) There are too many layers. In a game that's bogged down by loading screens and transitions as badly as Wrath, having a Crusade map, a city management tab, your Crusader Command Room and then the 'tactical' battles themselves is a slog. You spend way too much time just transitioning from one to the other and then back and forth.

2) The management itself is dull. Building stuff in the outposts and Drezen is full of shallow and meaningless decisions where (just like in Kingmaker) your choices are insignificant. Ooooh: If I build this building in between these 4 buildings, they all get +1 to "STAT" or something. I'm enthralled with this sort of gameplay. Build a hospital in every settlement. Whoa! Mind blown.

3) The battles are ♥♥♥♥. There's no real AI. Melee units don't have areas of control and don't retaliate so what does that make missile units? If you've ever played something like Heroes of Might and Magic, King's Bounty or even Disciples you just need to compare them against the Crusade to understand how piss-poor this really is.

[EasternTime]

Originally posted by Amoc:

There's so much criticism out there that you're being a bit disingenuous saying you don't understand it.

I just try to understant why exactly you is upset. You see, I collect and structure the criticisms, then I'll send it to developers. It's much easier for them than trying to follow forums.
Thanks for sharing.

[Echo]

Originally posted by EasternTime:

crusade mechanics require a huge rework. What do you think?

Well Amoc has said multiple times that they should just drop this feature and move on. I would agree with him but it's impossible since it's a core feature and they're post release.

I think they should make auto mode not lock you out of any story progression. Then it's not mandatory for any of the endings you want. You would still want to reward people for playing it so there'd be some other incentive like gold / items or something neat like a cool feat such as the type you get for reading books.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by Echo:

Originally posted by EasternTime:

crusade mechanics require a huge rework. What do you think?

Well Amoc has said multiple times that they should just drop this feature and move on. I would agree with him but it's impossible since it's a core feature and they're post release.

I think they should make auto mode not lock you out of any story progression. Then it's not mandatory for any of the endings you want. You would still want to reward people for playing it so there'd be some other incentive like gold / items or something neat like a cool feat such as the type you get for reading books.

The crusade system should not even be involved in any sort of story progression. There should be an option in the menu to completely disable it so you can choose to never deal with it in the first place. A complete on/off switch. That or dump the idea all together for any future games as to not repeat the stupid management systems again.

[Amoc]

I don't think the "crusade" should be completely removed. I just think the tactical battles should be axed and that the overall system should be abstracted (by that I mean just have blob armies auto-battle each other) or something. I think the idea of the "commander" marshaling and ordering armies around is cool and can promote some flavor and role play.

I just think the current system is hot trash and that there's absolutely no way it will ever be even 25% as interesting as the games it's trying to emulate (King's Bounty, Heroes of Might and Magic or even Disciples).

[MosulVet]

Yeah... it's straight terrible. It's broken right now, but even when they fix the bugs it'll just be less buggy but still terrible. Just poorly thought out and designed from start to finish.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by MosulVet:

Yeah... it's straight terrible. It's broken right now, but even when they fix the bugs it'll just be less buggy but still terrible. Just poorly thought out and designed from start to finish.

When has Owlcat been known for fixing bugs? Look at kingmaker for example. TB mode is still bugged and the support for it is nearly non-existent.

[Echo]

Originally posted by Alealexi:

Originally posted by MosulVet:

Yeah... it's straight terrible. It's broken right now, but even when they fix the bugs it'll just be less buggy but still terrible. Just poorly thought out and designed from start to finish.

When has Owlcat been known for fixing bugs? Look at kingmaker for example. TB mode is still bugged and the support for it is nearly non-existent.

Lets not muddy this clear little pool of tears with arguments about other issues...

Anyway... Well you have to be fair there were a lot more bugs than that! It took them a long time but they really did fix a lot of issues even way after most of the sales had dropped off. TB mode was never even part of their original product, that feature was added in after release. They seem committed to completing and polishing their games even though both times their babies have been premature.

I wonder what they'll make of Crusade Mode though.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by Echo:

The heck are they going to do with Crusade Mode though?

I think they should cut it or at least make it a mini game so that if someone never wants to interact with it then they can just ignore it without interaction. Also don't let it interact with the story so it doesn't lock you out of some of the story content.

[Amoc]

Owlcat (to their credit) does fix a lot of bugs after launch. Kingmaker is waaay better than it was at launch.

It's just unfortunate that they didn't learn their lesson and released Wrath as a buggy mess too.

Regardless, none of that has anything to do with the Crusade system, which flat out sucks and will never be a fun experience.

[seeker1]

One warning: turning the Crusade system off (i.e. Auto Crusade which is irreversible) robs you of one of the things that makes travel around the world map bearable in the main part of the game, i.e. teleport circles.

Also, I don't give a crap about the infamous secret ending, but one should note you can't get it if you turn Crusades off.

Like so many other parts of the game, it only became interesting once I tweaked it a bit through ToyBox.

There was one huge bug I really noticed: a lot of the Crusade armies, at least on the player side, seem to lack textures, and basically appear as featureless white blobs.

I agree as a feature it felt ... unfinished and unpolished, for other reasons. Also one other thing: if you turn it off, and there's a demon fort blocking your way to some place you want to get into in the map, the game will tell you how long it will take to fall in Auto Crusade mode. The bad news, sometimes that can be something like 80 days.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by seeker1:

One warning: turning the Crusade system off (i.e. Auto Crusade which is irreversible) robs you of one of the things that makes travel around the world map bearable in the main part of the game, i.e. teleport circles.

Also, I don't give a crap about the infamous secret ending, but one should note you can't get it if you turn Crusades off.

Like so many other parts of the game, it only became interesting once I tweaked it a bit through ToyBox.

There was one huge bug I really noticed: a lot of the Crusade armies, at least on the player side, seem to lack textures, and basically appear as featureless white blobs.

I agree as a feature it felt ... unfinished and unpolished, for other reasons. Also one other thing: if you turn it off, and there's a demon fort blocking your way to some place you want to get into in the map, the game will tell you how long it will take to fall in Auto Crusade mode. The bad news, sometimes that can be something like 80 days.

There is a simple fix for that. Make it so that none of those damn things are tied to it. It is terrible game design to tie those things and forces players to deal with idiotic crusade system.

Take BG3 for example. The teleport circles once you find them are always usable. They are not tied to some mini game or anything. You find it then activate it and it is usable.

This just amplifies why the crusade system is so bad.

[seeker1]

In the meantime, there are two solutions.

Combat Relief mod lets you basically practically ignore it (not entirely) without entirely turning it off in the menus. Every battle is auto resolve and win.

Toybox lets you set your Crusade settings to ridiculous levels, where it's impossible to lose.