Kinetic Knight and burn

[reidj062]

So feeling frustrated with the kinetic knight. In tabletop, burn is nonlethal damage, so it's tracked separately from lethal damage. It does not appear to work that way in WOTR. It looks like the burn is just subtracted from the HP you have before you fall unconscious.

This sucks for a melee character. So at my current level of 7, I pay 21 hp to get a +2 to two stats. I'm not sure that's worth falling unconscious for. Also, I've only got two things I can do to get burn, and I got one of those this level. Last level I would have to click a button for my defensive talent 3 times, even though I can't spend more than 1 burn on that ability (huh?).

How do I manage burn as a frontline character? I've looked up kinetic knight builds. No one seems to mention the burn dilemma.

Some of the resolute abilities are weird, too. Like this one that lets me roll twice when making a fort or will save, but before the save is resolved. Like this would work great in tabletop, but if you're doing real time in this game, there's no way to utilize this except unless in automatic mode.

[jonnin]

KK is gonna run a 20+ con stat and can afford the HP loss. You probably have more health than any normal frontliner by a very wide margin, so while it stings, it shouldn't be a game breaker? You have to think about when to burn though... will you save more health by burning and being more tanky or is it better to eat a few hits and not burn off your health? That depends on your difficulty settings -- how hard stuff is hitting you, and how often. If you are on core + where some demon jumps on you, swings 8 times for 50 damage each every round, then if you can... not get hit... that means more than losing 20 health to burn.

that said, the mythic stuff is unsurprisingly game breaking. You can get your defenses up without burn at all. The KK armor is... not helpful in this game. All you get from the KK is the lightsaber of doom, letting you cleave up groups for a ton of damage. That is what the class is good at.

[reidj062]

I'm wondering statistically why anyone would bother spending burn the way it's set up. They really should implement it the way it's set up in tabletop, even though nonlethal damage generally isn't a thing in this game.

Even the UI seems to suggest that they really added in the kineticist as an afterthought, even though it was featured in kingmaker. There's not enough buttons for all my kinetic abilities, and the defensive abilities aren't displayed on your character token when you use them.

The kineticist only gets d8 hp per level and you're getting average HP pool, so I wouldn't say you have a "ton" of hp even with trying to max out Con.

I'm also confused about why so many people recommend going hard on Dex as kinetic knight. A kinetic blade isn't considered a finesse weapon. Are they using a mythic ability to make it one somehow?

[jonnin]

Originally posted by reidj062:

I'm wondering statistically why anyone would bother spending burn the way it's set up. They really should implement it the way it's set up in tabletop, even though nonlethal damage generally isn't a thing in this game.

Even the UI seems to suggest that they really added in the kineticist as an afterthought, even though it was featured in kingmaker. There's not enough buttons for all my kinetic abilities, and the defensive abilities aren't displayed on your character token when you use them.

The kineticist only gets d8 hp per level and you're getting average HP pool, so I wouldn't say you have a "ton" of hp even with trying to max out Con.

I'm also confused about why so many people recommend going hard on Dex as kinetic knight. A kinetic blade isn't considered a finesse weapon. Are they using a mythic ability to make it one somehow?

blade works with finesse for to-hit. It gets 0 from str or dex either one for damage. There is no benefit to str apart from having enough to haul around your favorite set of armor and shield. Dex doubles down on AC and reflex save, etc, while str is just carry cap for your character.

I respectfully disagree. Even with 'only' 8 hp/level, by act 3 you have 24-26 and that is 15+ per level. Even a d12 barbarian would need a 14 or 16 con to keep up with you, and they wouldn't: they need other stats more.

I won't disagree about how its implemented. Its not only off from TT, its difficult to understand at first and as you said, it feels like it was slapped in last min. Its clunky interface doesn't make it much less fun, though. You can still have a blast (yea, I went there) but you will want to discard stuff you don't use off the bars and organize it carefully. To your point, I rarely spend burn. I often take my guy off into water for pre-rest healing/restoration/resurrection/etc burn spells that I am going to sleep off in a moment. Normal (not knight) will gather power and avoid burn, more often than not. Last fight or two before sleep, you may just burn out.

[reidj062]

Okay well I built wrong then because I'm slightly more str based than dex based.

[jonnin]

Originally posted by reidj062:

Okay well I built wrong then because I'm slightly more str based than dex based.

Its not 'wrong' unless you mean the most tweaked min/max setup possible. You get a feat back (won't need finesse) but sit with lower AC, reflex save from the dex hit.
I don't KNOW the uber tweaked values. You need str to wear heavy armor & shield. You need str to unlock the cleave chain too, and if nothing else cleaving finish (top tier) is very, very useful on this class. So regardless you need 13/14 str I think even if you had 20 dex.

Bottom line is you should still be able to play it just fine. Dex is technically better, but this game and its players forget role playing aspects too. A guy in 50+ pounds of plate mail with a 15 pound shield and all is gonna be beefy, not an acrobat. First thing I would do as a DM with some min/max player is give him all his money in some extremely heavy format that he can't carry while also having his armor and shield because his str is 13 flat. You find 1 million worth of gold pieces... in copper.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by reidj062:

So feeling frustrated with the kinetic knight. In tabletop, burn is nonlethal damage, so it's tracked separately from lethal damage. It does not appear to work that way in WOTR. It looks like the burn is just subtracted from the HP you have before you fall unconscious.

This sucks for a melee character. So at my current level of 7, I pay 21 hp to get a +2 to two stats. I'm not sure that's worth falling unconscious for. Also, I've only got two things I can do to get burn, and I got one of those this level. Last level I would have to click a button for my defensive talent 3 times, even though I can't spend more than 1 burn on that ability (huh?).

How do I manage burn as a frontline character? I've looked up kinetic knight builds. No one seems to mention the burn dilemma.

Kineticist, in general, is a tricky one to play early on because too many of the early creatures have DR/energy resistance/spell resistance. This is a problem unique to Wrath and the Righteous, not a pathfinder specific thing - you don't typically face SR until higher levels, especially SR combined with DR and energy resistances.

My plan, early on, was to accept that I'm subpar as a kineticist at low levelsand go with a non-elemental damage base attack (because it doesn't get hindered by SR), then move into fire damage at a later level once I have my basics built.

I don't really use burn at all. Like, it's good to have stockpiled for when I need it, but I don't usually need it. I don't really use the infusions either... And you don't need to "gather power" if you don't use more than the base kinetic blade, which leaves you free to have a shield or other weapon.

Since this is my main, there's a subfocus on Persuasion because I like being able to act in the dialogue.

I've been building mine as a porcupine tank. Probably suboptimal, but I'm of the mindset that you can always lower the difficulty...

Kinetic Knight
Dwarf (unstoppable)
Acolyte background
16, 14, 17, 14, 14, 5 (ugly dwarf)
1 Earth, Iron Will
2 Skill focus Persuasion
3 Shield Focus
4 Skilled Kineticist
5 Weapon Focus Kinetic Blast, Pushing Infusion
6 Jagged Flesh
7 Fire, Spell Penetration
8 Searing Flesh
9 Toughness
10 Flame Shield
11 Burning Infusion, Greater Spell Penetration
12 Tremorsense
13 Unraveling Infusion, Combat Reflexes

Mythic (I went the Aeon route)
1 Ascendant Element Fire
2 Mythic Heavy Shield Aggressive Block
3 Last Stand

My build is just a subpar tank until level 6, and then it plateaus at level 8 + 2nd mythic rank. After that, It's kinda directionless (I just took more tank-related options).

So the key here is that it combines Jagged Flesh, Searing Flesh, and Heavy Shield Aggressive Block, which all 3 deal damage each time I'm hit. It's about 15 damage each time I'm hit in melee. Beyond that, he's a typical tank that uses medium armor and a heavy shield.

I have a weightless flaming sword (Flame kinetic blast) that, sometimes, goes through my opponents SR and kills most things that don't have SR.

Meh, I like it. I think I can do better, probably, but it's working well enough.

PS: the searing flesh (and a bunch of the other kineticist defensive abilities) are just always on in a passive capacity. They have a toggle ability that boosts their effectiveness for a burn cost, but those abilities don't always need the burn cost. It's incredibly misleading, how it looks in your abilities bar.

[canuck250]

Originally posted by Chronocide:

Combat Reflexes

Kinetic blade can not make AoO so will gain nothing from this feat.

Originally posted by jonnin:

There is no benefit to str apart from having enough to haul around your favorite set of armor and shield.

Str has the benefit of having more buff support so it can hit higher numbers. If you plan on using energy blades, you really do not need it but I prefer str when using physical blades.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by canuck250:

Originally posted by Chronocide:

Combat Reflexes

Kinetic blade can not make AoO so will gain nothing from this feat.

Ty.