How to build a proper Angel Cleric of Erastil?

[Nero]

After I nice Azata run with an Urban Hunter / Mutation Warrior (thanks again, juzam_djinn_fr) I'm thinking about a second run with an Angel of Erastil (core difficulty at max, maybe even normal)

You know: The Leopard, some Bow-Damage to do something while not casting, the Guarded Hearth, aso.
And I simply love WIS classes and for whatever reason don't really like CHA classes.
Thing is: There are several options and I'm still not even close to fully understand all the possible options.
So maybe someone coud give me a hint or two.

There is the caster route
While it was a newbie trap in Kingmaker, the Mystic Theruge could somewhat work in WotR I think.
So how gimped would something like 8 Ecclesitheurge / 3 Empyreal / 9 Mystic Theurge actually be?
Even with Angel's spellbook merge it would come down to a (magic) missle launcher of lower level spells with a fancy cat.
The Caster Level should be 16/18 if I'm not mistaken. (CL calculation is something I'm really bad at)
The bow is an afterthought here.


And we have the "let's try to be an archer" route
This route would take the archery more serious. This is of course feat-heavy, even with a human.

So it's either going with the Cruader and use 1 Mythic Feat for Impossible Domain
or
Some wild dip into Zen Archer, probably 3 levels of ZA so WIS instead of DEX for hits, leaving more room for STR.
This ofc hampers the CL and spell progression.

What would you choose? And any dip-recommendation, esp for the Crusader-option?

[Yannir]

If you're playing a class that's capable of merging spellbooks with either Angel or Lich, it doesn't really matter what your primary casting stat is. The entire spellbook scales from your classes primary spellcasting stat.

Why I personally think Oracles make better Supports/Healers than Clerics is because even if you play a Cleric that has their spellcasting scale from Wis, you still need atleast some Charisma. Channeling positive energy to damage Undead is a Persuasion-check. Your Channel healing amount scales from Charisma, as do some feats and abilities. Selective Channel requires 12 Charisma to be picked. Which is then away from your other stats. Whereas an Oracle gains nothing from Wisdom aside from the usual. They can also easily get a pet from the Nature Mystery.

So when you make a Support/Healing character, keep in mind that this is their primary role. Bows or pets are a secondary consideration and get whatever is leftover. A Crusader Cleric can probably work as such, it certainly gets enough feats but your stats or damage output won't really compare to a dedicated ranged character of a more suitable class.

Ofc you could make a Cleric that's not a support-healer but then you get the question of why would you make them a Cleric at all then? Warpriest and Inquisitor are much better equipped at being damage dealers. You won't get a merged spellbook but Angel will still get you to level 10 spells eventually. Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor gets a pet by default and is easily turned into a ranged character. In fact that's how I build Lann pretty much every time. 3 levels of Zen Archer, then go fully into Huntsmaster.

Then there's one more thing why I think a bow on a support-healer is a waste of stats. If you're a caster with a merged spellbook, you have an absolute crapton of spells. You'll never use that bow. Because how does that twigshooter compare to slapping down Firestorms after another? And you'll be doing that on level 10 with a merged spellbook. My Angel Oracle went from level 5 spells on MR2/Oracle10 to level 8 spells on MR3/Oracle10.

Which works on Cleric too. The only reason you want a ranged weapon on them is so that they don't charge into melee when you forget to queue a spell. Which isn't even a relevant point if you play turn-based.

Sorry that turned out a bit rant-y.
It's just that I tried this character as my first playthrough and it sucked balls. Only now that I've played through the game a few times that I know why that was the case.

[Nero]

I thank you for your input.
It doesn't matter if it's ranty or not. I got your point.

It's a bit weird and personal but I simply hate caster CHA-classes or the whole concept of CHA in terms of casting ("you're a top-model, so you're a splendid sorcerer, even if you're dump as eff". This whole concept never got into my head). I know that CHA is more than just looks but this cliché has burned itself into my mind.
Therefore an Oracle is no option.


And the idea of the bow is simply to have a rather smooth experience, even on low levels.
I've seen some other classes builds that are borderline broken, but only at something like level 13+ or Mythic 2+
I'm well aware that such hybrids will never be above the curve for everything (healing/buffing/cc, aso). That's the price for the jack-of-all-trades route.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Nero:

It's a bit weird and personal but I simply hate caster CHA-classes or the whole concept of CHA in terms of casting ("you're a top-model, so you're a splendid sorcerer, even if you're dump as eff". This whole concept never got into my head). I know that CHA is more than just looks but this cliché has burned itself into my mind.
Therefore an Oracle is no option.

Yeah, "being sorta good-looking enough to cast spells" never made sense to me either.

So I basically made a headcanon that designates Charisma as social skills, performance skills or natural charm rather than having anything to do with looks. As far as I'm concerned, even the ugliest person on the planet can have 18 Charisma.

Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are physical attributes. Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma are mental attributes. None have anything to do with "being pretty".

[Tyrendian89]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Yeah, "being sorta good-looking enough to cast spells" never made sense to me either.

So I basically made a headcanon that designates Charisma as social skills, performance skills or natural charm rather than having anything to do with looks. As far as I'm concerned, even the ugliest person on the planet can have 18 Charisma.

Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are physical attributes. Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma are mental attributes. None have anything to do with "being pretty".

For my headcanon, CHA in these cases is pretty much self-belief and the ability to project that conviction outwards - so you as a Sorc/Oracle have absolute faith in yourself being able to do these things (spellcasting), so much so that you're not only very good at convicing others around you, but even... well... reality itself that you know what you're doing.
Doesnt make the most sense written down quickly like that, but it works for me ;)

[Trolleur_Durden]

In the D&D and PF universe, charisma is a measure of the "strength" of someone's personality, and isn't specifically tied to beauty.

[Entropos]

I'm still pretty new to pathfinder - so I'm not 100% sure about this but...

...doesn't multi-classing destroy the value of your pet?

Maybe Mystic Theurge is an exception, but if you're only 8 levels of cleric, doesn't that mean your pet is level 8 at end game?

[Trolleur_Durden]

Multiclassing is indeed detrimental to the growth of your pet, however there's a feat called Boon companion which gives your animal companion 4 more levels in case they are lacking some due to multiclassing or class features (some classes have an animal companion at lvl 4, which lacks 3 levels compared to some other classes with fully-fledged animal companions like Druid). So you can indeed multiclass up to 4 levels while still retaining a full-level animal companion.