Act 1, spellcaster, tips?

[Ignis Imperia]

Hey,

I play on Core dififculty and I have 2 runs going, one is Bard that I play offstream and is going well, it's currently in late act 3 and having a lot of good times with it.

However then there's my stream character, a crossblood sorcerer (green dragon + earth elemental, wanted to try something a little different so focusing acid element), and I only managed to get her through act 1 yesterday and I have to say I am not sure how to properly play a spellcaster in this game clearly.

How do people play a spellcaster like sorcerer properly? In act 1 until you get mythic rank 1 you can't get ascendant element, so you are stuck using your weapons anyway (and being bad at it for obvious reasons) or debuffing enemies (or using only magic missile), now I'm moving into act 2 but I really feel severely underpowered compared to just about everyone on my party, because:

Ulbrig is absolute beast the moment he gets permanent polymorph
Camellia is... well she's always a beast with passive 26 AC before buffs and good spell variety as well as self buffs
Ember is just as good as I am in spellcasting except she's focused on fire and also can use hexes
Wenduag is just better despite I accidentally built her into longbow instead of throwing axes as I intended and deals massive amounts of damage with it nonetheless and utterly destroying the enemies from afar while requiring no micromanagement
Daeran is a healer and doing very good job of it while also delivering A LOT of good buffs.

So.. What exactly is my strength that I can bring to the table? I really feel kind of lost in what I'm supposed to do to not feel like anytime I'm looking at my party I go "Right, who could we replace with someone else to be better off - ah... of course... me"

._. Thank you all for any tips, I thought after 180 hours I finally have pretty good understanding of the game but the moment I touch a spellcaster character that illusion crumbled to dust to say the least. :D

[lemurs2]

You are playing sorc, which is like the 3rd worst class in the game. If you were a wizard you would be doing better. Geez, even an arcanist would do better.

[jonnin]

revan1229 a écrit :

jonnin a écrit :

What everyone is dancing around is that in this universe, against these enemy types, and in this game where core+ targets are seriously difficult, the damage caster is at a major disadvantage.

lets compare the damage caster to like a slayer/rowdy archer for single target. The caster has to overcome ranged touch AC (while touch ac is low, caster BAB sucks ...) and spell resistance, and element resistance (fixable after early game but spending 6 levels doing like 5 damage each for your 4 spells a day is not fun) just to land a hit that is usually less than impressive. The slayer/rowdy takes his one vital strike shot at full BAB against the target's armor, and if he hits with a sneak attack, he reduces both its damage resist and AC from class abilities while nailing it for 3 or 4 times what the wizard/sorcerer did in damage, with far less concern that his arrow might be mostly resisted or ignored. Lan (monk/rowdy for me) is hitting 60 damage per round and usually hits by the time I leave the tavern first time, while gandalf is lucky to hit for like 10-15. Lan can shoot arrows all day and even after fatigued. Gandalf has like 6 shots. I don't know if gandalf is gonna be awesome at level 15 because I can't stand trying to get him there.

its similar for aoe bombs too. Mog the melee machine can run up with a longspear and great cleave 8 guys for 25+ damage each every round for 18 hours a day, only has to content with armor class (and some physical resist before he gets a good weapon, but lets say I have... finnian ... which ignores all the early game DR). Mean while gandalf lobs whatever flavor of aoe and you get 4 of the 8 failed to overcome spell resist, 3 of the 4 that are left made a reflex save, the one that failed the save took 10 less damage because its a demon that resists every element there is, and his damage looks like 6-8 damage done to half the targets. And just like before gandalf has 4 or 6 aoe bombs per day while mog is still up there doing the sit & spin routine and actually killing the bad guys.

This is the world you live in. As others already said, being a sidekick to the A team who greases up the ground or summons 25 skeletons to melee the crap out of the bad guys or conjures up the all mighty sarlacc pit under them works great. You just can't do significant damage for so many levels that you forget why you wanted to be a spell caster in the first place. I am sure it works at high levels... but I salute people with the patience to get there.

What you seem to be missing is that this is not out of the ordinary for these types of games. "Linear Warrior, Quadratic Wizard." And you're overestimating how long it takes for them to come online. Damage casters come online around Act 3 (can be earlier if you've got another caster in the party). That's not exactly high levels. And moving from CC/buffing to damage is easy to do in this game. Bombers are in a bit of a rougher spot, I'll admit. They don't scale to the level that casters do, but they're not bad at all.

Low caster BAB is pretty much irrelevant if you're a ray caster. Presumably, your caster would have any buffs that your martials would have to hit, so it's much easier to get them above the to-hit threshold. Additionally, you get Gloves of Arcane Eradication early. But damage casters are better off with AOE (unless going Trickster). Large AOE with unresistable damage to the large, spread out mobs this game throws at you is not something the typical martial can do.

I agree with this. And yet ... its a 5 act game, and you just told me to wait out ~half of it before my character starts to do its job correctly, while watching a bunch of idiots with overgrown knives excel at theirs from the first giant fly on. That is a problem for me, and so I stand by my post ... this ruleset and these targets make for a very rough go of it as a damage caster, and I am no longer inclined to try to make one. Far as it goes the best luck I have had are arcanist exploits, which have a single point of failure (reflex save, thx to holy water for resisty demons and elements (prefer fire) for the occasional humans) to fight against and lots of uses per sleep (converting the useless spells into exploit juice).

[revan1229]

jonnin a écrit :

I agree with this. And yet ... its a 5 act game, and you just told me to wait out ~half of it before my character starts to do its job correctly, while watching a bunch of idiots with overgrown knives excel at theirs from the first giant fly on. That is a problem for me, and so I stand by my post ... this ruleset and these targets make for a very rough go of it as a damage caster, and I am no longer inclined to try to make one. Far as it goes the best luck I have had are arcanist exploits, which have a single point of failure (reflex save, thx to holy water for resisty demons and elements (prefer fire) for the occasional humans) to fight against and lots of uses per sleep (converting the useless spells into exploit juice).

Technically, 6 acts + DLC, and it's a little misleading to say half, as the first 2 acts are significantly shorter. You don't even have to wait that long. Go Exploiter Wizard, and focus on Bolstered Magic Missiles with Gloves of the Neophyte, Burning Hands (for swarms)/Burning Arc (for cultists), and the new spells (Explosive Runes, Silver Darts) while boosting your CL. Or go Elemental Specialist/Thass. If you have another caster (say Nenio) that handles CC/buff duty, you will be able to do your job just fine. Take Ascendant Element for the first Mythic Power, buy the +2 Spell Pen robe from Woljif at camp, and you're pretty much ready.

[Soul]

revan1229 a écrit :

jonnin a écrit :

I agree with this. And yet ... its a 5 act game, and you just told me to wait out ~half of it before my character starts to do its job correctly, while watching a bunch of idiots with overgrown knives excel at theirs from the first giant fly on. That is a problem for me, and so I stand by my post ... this ruleset and these targets make for a very rough go of it as a damage caster, and I am no longer inclined to try to make one. Far as it goes the best luck I have had are arcanist exploits, which have a single point of failure (reflex save, thx to holy water for resisty demons and elements (prefer fire) for the occasional humans) to fight against and lots of uses per sleep (converting the useless spells into exploit juice).

Technically, 6 acts + DLC, and it's a little misleading to say half, as the first 2 acts are significantly shorter. You don't even have to wait that long. Go Exploiter Wizard, and focus on Bolstered Magic Missiles with Gloves of the Neophyte, Burning Hands (for swarms)/Burning Arc (for cultists), and the new spells (Explosive Runes, Silver Darts) while boosting your CL. Or go Elemental Specialist/Thass. If you have another caster (say Nenio) that handles CC/buff duty, you will be able to do your job just fine. Take Ascendant Element for the first Mythic Power, buy the +2 Spell Pen robe from Woljif at camp, and you're pretty much ready.

eh..... magic missile with bolstered metamagic by level 9 is only doing a total of 5d4 + 5 + 10.... and a gloves will provide an extra +1 per missile.... so 20 to 35 damage range

which requires 5 spell resistance checks to hit with all of them.... and shield spell negates all of them

meanwhile snowball can be intensified... at level 10 it will be doing 10d6 damage.... and stacks with a draconic bloodline AND gloves of neophyte.... so 30 to 80 damage for one ranged touch attack.... and no spell resistance check since its conjuration spell.... and ascendant element will bypass all resistances to your preferred element

plus for big bad enemies with tons of AC and spell resistance.... their touch AC is laughable.... like think the big demon in the tavern while taking Drezen has like a touch AC of 3..... making snowball perfect.... which early on cold damage actually is good.... not many enemies resist cold early game from what I recall.... most early enemies are resistant to fire, electricity, and acid...

plus Act 2 start is when things really start ramping up for casters.... spell penetration robes, and 2 rods of empower you can buy right at the start of Act 2.... so you'd be able to use the rod 6 times per rest to empower your bolstered, and intensified snowballs

and they throw a maximize rod in later one and a quicken rod.... skeletal salesman even has option to buy more rods from him...

[revan1229]

Soul a écrit :

revan1229 a écrit :

Technically, 6 acts + DLC, and it's a little misleading to say half, as the first 2 acts are significantly shorter. You don't even have to wait that long. Go Exploiter Wizard, and focus on Bolstered Magic Missiles with Gloves of the Neophyte, Burning Hands (for swarms)/Burning Arc (for cultists), and the new spells (Explosive Runes, Silver Darts) while boosting your CL. Or go Elemental Specialist/Thass. If you have another caster (say Nenio) that handles CC/buff duty, you will be able to do your job just fine. Take Ascendant Element for the first Mythic Power, buy the +2 Spell Pen robe from Woljif at camp, and you're pretty much ready.

eh..... magic missile with bolstered metamagic by level 9 is only doing a total of 5d4 + 5 + 10.... and a gloves will provide an extra +1 per missile.... so 20 to 35 damage range

which requires 5 spell resistance checks to hit with all of them.... and shield spell negates all of them

meanwhile snowball can be intensified... at level 10 it will be doing 10d6 damage.... and stacks with a draconic bloodline AND gloves of neophyte.... so 30 to 80 damage for one ranged touch attack.... and no spell resistance check since its conjuration spell.... and ascendant element will bypass all resistances to your preferred element

plus for big bad enemies with tons of AC and spell resistance.... their touch AC is laughable.... like think the big demon in the tavern while taking Drezen has like a touch AC of 3..... making snowball perfect.... which early on cold damage actually is good.... not many enemies resist cold early game from what I recall.... most early enemies are resistant to fire, electricity, and acid...

plus Act 2 start is when things really start ramping up for casters.... spell penetration robes, and 2 rods of empower you can buy right at the start of Act 2.... so you'd be able to use the rod 6 times per rest to empower your bolstered, and intensified snowballs

and they throw a maximize rod in later one and a quicken rod.... skeletal salesman even has option to buy more rods from him...

Drezen is the end of Act 2......... I was talking about the early, early game starting in Kenabres, which is why I mentioned spells from spell level 1-3........... For Act 1, I don't think the typical caster build is rushing to get PBS and Precise Shot before anything else, and the strongest CC early game knocks enemies prone (another 4 penalty for touch attacks). MM is early, guaranteed damage for certain enemies (spellcasters, etc.), and is useful for the Minagho fight. Also, not sure where you got the idea that enemies resist cold less? Demons have cold resistance, as do cambions.

Also, Edge of Force is an extra +2 damage/per dice, but for level 10+, yes, you can upgrade to Snowball, Battering Blast, Scorching Ray, etc. You have far more options in Act 2.

[Soul]

revan1229 a écrit :

Soul a écrit :

eh..... magic missile with bolstered metamagic by level 9 is only doing a total of 5d4 + 5 + 10.... and a gloves will provide an extra +1 per missile.... so 20 to 35 damage range

which requires 5 spell resistance checks to hit with all of them.... and shield spell negates all of them

meanwhile snowball can be intensified... at level 10 it will be doing 10d6 damage.... and stacks with a draconic bloodline AND gloves of neophyte.... so 30 to 80 damage for one ranged touch attack.... and no spell resistance check since its conjuration spell.... and ascendant element will bypass all resistances to your preferred element

plus for big bad enemies with tons of AC and spell resistance.... their touch AC is laughable.... like think the big demon in the tavern while taking Drezen has like a touch AC of 3..... making snowball perfect.... which early on cold damage actually is good.... not many enemies resist cold early game from what I recall.... most early enemies are resistant to fire, electricity, and acid...

plus Act 2 start is when things really start ramping up for casters.... spell penetration robes, and 2 rods of empower you can buy right at the start of Act 2.... so you'd be able to use the rod 6 times per rest to empower your bolstered, and intensified snowballs

and they throw a maximize rod in later one and a quicken rod.... skeletal salesman even has option to buy more rods from him...

Drezen is the end of Act 2......... I was talking about the early, early game starting in Kenabres, which is why I mentioned spells from spell level 1-3........... For Act 1, I don't think the typical caster build is rushing to get PBS and Precise Shot before anything else, and the strongest CC early game knocks enemies prone (another 4 penalty for touch attacks). MM is early, guaranteed damage for certain enemies (spellcasters, etc.), and is useful for the Minagho fight. Also, not sure where you got the idea that enemies resist cold less? Demons have cold resistance, as do cambions.

Also, Edge of Force is an extra +2 damage/per dice, but for level 10+, yes, you can upgrade to Snowball, Battering Blast, Scorching Ray, etc. You have far more options in Act 2.

I meant that of the elements there are "less" enemies with cold resist than other resistances.... which think it was electricity that has the most enemies who have that resistance

and yeah I always take point blank shot and precise shot by time I hit level 3..... if you wanna do damage you gotta hit afterall.... and with my starting 16 dex giving me +3 to hit having -4 to hit enemies within melee range of an ally puts me at -1 to hit with ranged....

so with point blank shot giving + 1 to attack and damage rolls within 30 feet.... that boosts a lot of short range spells early game.... snowball and cantrips for instance are always within 30 feet... so 1d3 cantrip gets +1 to damage.... and a +1 to hit... so +2 dex worth of modifiers

and precise shot negates the -4 penalty to hit enemies engaged in melee.... which dex wise its 8 dex worth to counter the penalty....

so total with 2 feats I get +1 to damage.... and for enemies engaged in melee within 30 feet.... its as if my Dex is +10 to hit them....

but early game you have cantrips that start off at 1d3 damage.... with point blank shot giving it +1.... gloves of neophyte a +1.... dragon bloodline a +1..... that 1d3 cantrip is now dealing 4-6 damage.... which you can achieve with a crossblooded sorcerer by time you first wake up in the tavern to pick up the gloves.... otherwise a non dragon bloodline sorcerer can make it 3-5 damage....

magic missile at level 1 deals 1d4+1 damage.... so 2-5 damage for one missile.... no attack roll though but requires a spell resistance check....

so basically a cantrip is like running around with a level 1 magic missile that doesnt expire.... plus you have higher chance to hit with acid splash since its a conjuration cantrip it doesnt need spell resistance check either.... just touch AC....

also I like to equip 2 weapons early on.... a crossbow.... and a longspear.... sorcerers can wield longspears which provide reach to hit... so you can grease up a spot and have the spear ready to attack from behind the tank and take advantage of the +4 to hit bonus against prone enemies

also at level 5 magic missile gets 3 missiles for 1d4+1..... snowball is capped at 5d6 at level 5.... so 3 spell resistance checks to deal 6-15 damage with no attack roll required..... snowball is dealing 5-30 damage on its own.... but buffed with gloves its 10-35 damage.... point blank gives it +1 damage flat.... and if you had a draconic bloodline on top of that it would be 16-41 damage... snowball even wins with bolster metamagic over magic missile.... at level 5 thats 3 missiles so bolster would only add +6 to damage.... snowball would be at 5d6 so +10 to damage...

and you can intensify snowball but not magic missile.... so when I reach level 6 in Act 1 I can use bolstered, intensified snowballs already... just in time for the nasty new enemies in market square after defending the tavern....

but yeah early game I dont have to worry about spell resistance checks cause all my early game spells dont require them.... acid splash cantrip.... snowball.... grease.... web... glitterdust...

[ptirodaktill]

The sole reason to play dmg oriented crossblood sorcerer was to stack fire dragons for +1 dmg per dice rolled, then dip intro elemental specialist to convert fortitude-based ST spells and chainlightning and ray`s intro fire. You could abuse Camelia fire spirit curse for 50% more dmg multiplier and oneshot most encounters with hellfire ray. And it no longer work at all , lol.
Allied spellcaster no longer stack, you need spell pen. You can`t stack +1 dmg per dice rolled bloodlines, you can`t pump your CL over 30 for these juicy chain-ligtnings, you need full support to hit anything in act 3 with the ray and the dmg is so lackluster you start to questioning your life choises right away. No dmg, clunky gameplay, you are useless in half of encounters cause for half of the game you have only reflex-saving spells and every archer in this game has improved evasion.
Right now, evocation is useless for 2/3 of the game. It does nothing. Also after agro change its infuriating to play with low-AC character.

[Soul]

ptirodaktill a écrit :

The sole reason to play dmg oriented crossblood sorcerer was to stack fire dragons for +1 dmg per dice rolled, then dip intro elemental specialist to convert fortitude-based ST spells and chainlightning and ray`s intro fire. You could abuse Camelia fire spirit curse for 50% more dmg multiplier and oneshot most encounters with hellfire ray. And it no longer work at all , lol.
Allied spellcaster no longer stack, you need spell pen. You can`t stack +1 dmg per dice rolled bloodlines, you can`t pump your CL over 30 for these juicy chain-ligtnings, you need full support to hit anything in act 3 with the ray and the dmg is so lackluster you start to questioning your life choises right away. No dmg, clunky gameplay, you are useless in half of encounters cause for half of the game you have only reflex-saving spells and every archer in this game has improved evasion.
Right now, evocation is useless for 2/3 of the game. It does nothing. Also after agro change its infuriating to play with low-AC character.

i'd say they more balanced it than nerfing it.... I mean fire was the only element you could triple stack.... others could only double stack....

but pretty much they did wait till after the last sarkorians DLC to change it..... pretty sure its cause they added that item that does essentially the same thing but for all elements.... +2 per die plus a few other features.... it is late game but that equipment makes it so all draconic bloodlines can match with each other

also the nerf to chain lightning isnt that bad.... I mean they added intensified metamagic into the game.... which buffs up chain lightning back a bit as well as making some spells more potent such as snowball from its 5d6 into a 10d6.... or fireball and lightning bolt as 15d6 instead of 10d6.... hellfire ray goes from 45d6 max level up to 60d6 with intensified metamagic

[revan1229]

Soul a écrit :

revan1229 a écrit :

Drezen is the end of Act 2......... I was talking about the early, early game starting in Kenabres, which is why I mentioned spells from spell level 1-3........... For Act 1, I don't think the typical caster build is rushing to get PBS and Precise Shot before anything else, and the strongest CC early game knocks enemies prone (another 4 penalty for touch attacks). MM is early, guaranteed damage for certain enemies (spellcasters, etc.), and is useful for the Minagho fight. Also, not sure where you got the idea that enemies resist cold less? Demons have cold resistance, as do cambions.

Also, Edge of Force is an extra +2 damage/per dice, but for level 10+, yes, you can upgrade to Snowball, Battering Blast, Scorching Ray, etc. You have far more options in Act 2.

I meant that of the elements there are "less" enemies with cold resist than other resistances.... which think it was electricity that has the most enemies who have that resistance

and yeah I always take point blank shot and precise shot by time I hit level 3..... if you wanna do damage you gotta hit afterall.... and with my starting 16 dex giving me +3 to hit having -4 to hit enemies within melee range of an ally puts me at -1 to hit with ranged....

so with point blank shot giving + 1 to attack and damage rolls within 30 feet.... that boosts a lot of short range spells early game.... snowball and cantrips for instance are always within 30 feet... so 1d3 cantrip gets +1 to damage.... and a +1 to hit... so +2 dex worth of modifiers

and precise shot negates the -4 penalty to hit enemies engaged in melee.... which dex wise its 8 dex worth to counter the penalty....

so total with 2 feats I get +1 to damage.... and for enemies engaged in melee within 30 feet.... its as if my Dex is +10 to hit them....

but early game you have cantrips that start off at 1d3 damage.... with point blank shot giving it +1.... gloves of neophyte a +1.... dragon bloodline a +1..... that 1d3 cantrip is now dealing 4-6 damage.... which you can achieve with a crossblooded sorcerer by time you first wake up in the tavern to pick up the gloves.... otherwise a non dragon bloodline sorcerer can make it 3-5 damage....

magic missile at level 1 deals 1d4+1 damage.... so 2-5 damage for one missile.... no attack roll though but requires a spell resistance check....

so basically a cantrip is like running around with a level 1 magic missile that doesnt expire.... plus you have higher chance to hit with acid splash since its a conjuration cantrip it doesnt need spell resistance check either.... just touch AC....

also I like to equip 2 weapons early on.... a crossbow.... and a longspear.... sorcerers can wield longspears which provide reach to hit... so you can grease up a spot and have the spear ready to attack from behind the tank and take advantage of the +4 to hit bonus against prone enemies

also at level 5 magic missile gets 3 missiles for 1d4+1..... snowball is capped at 5d6 at level 5.... so 3 spell resistance checks to deal 6-15 damage with no attack roll required..... snowball is dealing 5-30 damage on its own.... but buffed with gloves its 10-35 damage.... point blank gives it +1 damage flat.... and if you had a draconic bloodline on top of that it would be 16-41 damage... snowball even wins with bolster metamagic over magic missile.... at level 5 thats 3 missiles so bolster would only add +6 to damage.... snowball would be at 5d6 so +10 to damage...

and you can intensify snowball but not magic missile.... so when I reach level 6 in Act 1 I can use bolstered, intensified snowballs already... just in time for the nasty new enemies in market square after defending the tavern....

but yeah early game I dont have to worry about spell resistance checks cause all my early game spells dont require them.... acid splash cantrip.... snowball.... grease.... web... glitterdust...

Some enemies are immune to electric. I'm not sure that equates to there being "less" enemies resistant to cold. They can be both immune to electric and resist cold..........

And....you talk about using Grease, Web, and Glitterdust....but you put no points into SF feats.....(or Selective MM)? So....you would rather a Snowball (potentially) hit over your enemies failing their saves against Grease/Glitterdust.....? Additionally, as I said, if something is knocked down by Grease....your Snowball's will have a -4 penalty to hit..... Precise Shot does not negate that penalty.........

Don't think doing extra damage on Snowball is worth the drawbacks of a CB Sorc. And if your Sorc is whacking things with a spear, they're not casting Snowballs/cantrips..... Speaking of cantrips, they will do no damage to many enemies because of elemental resistances.

And maybe you didn't read what I wrote about MM, since you keep on bringing up SR. MM can be used to do guaranteed damage to certain dangerous targets at range like spellcasters (the one in Kenabres square, the Gwerm library, etc.), shadows, etc., and is useful for the last fight of the act because of the buff the game gives you. Snowball is close range (and you're playing a Sorc, so the Metamagic is going to cost you, too), and again, if a target is knocked down or tripped, you will suffer a -4 penalty to hit.

At level 6, you've got Haste (and presumably an Extend Rod). Don't think a souped up Snowball is better than that as much as you tout those numbers (and you don't seem to be accounting for cold resistance with those numbers). A potential benefit I don't think you've mentioned is the Stagger effect, which could be useful, but you're not taking SF feats..........

[jonnin]

talking cantrips, that is another example of some sort of keep the wizards weak mentality with the main campaign. An eldrich rogue scrub build (meaning, not even built for it but just lobbing a cantrip because they were out of knife range and it hits more often than a bow) can reliably hit and fry stuff with sneak attack cantrips, quickly doing 2d6+ in the early (pre crusade) game, while the wizard/sorc with everything you can afford to buy and dedicate to the effort is nowhere near that. By the time you are clearing out the grey garrison he also strips off about half their resistance with weakening wound too. Without a single feat, item, or anything backing it up, the rogue cantrip actually kills a few targets now and again .. in act ONE!

I had a character like this (dedicated to it) in the midnight isles stand alone (the aptly named Ray will never be forgotten) and he not only excelled but carried the team at times with those sneak attacks, but MI has random enemy and mostly not resist everything demon types but a good mix of targets and one of the many ranged touch cantrips is ensured to work on most of the targets. I bet it would be fair in through the ashes as well, though that becomes demonic at the end. The issue, still, is the specific campaign and the enemy features, not the class, rule set, or all that. Between this feature and the crusade minigame, I think I am remembering why I like through the ashes and MI bashing more than the main story.

[Soul]

revan1229 a écrit :

Soul a écrit :

I meant that of the elements there are "less" enemies with cold resist than other resistances.... which think it was electricity that has the most enemies who have that resistance

and yeah I always take point blank shot and precise shot by time I hit level 3..... if you wanna do damage you gotta hit afterall.... and with my starting 16 dex giving me +3 to hit having -4 to hit enemies within melee range of an ally puts me at -1 to hit with ranged....

so with point blank shot giving + 1 to attack and damage rolls within 30 feet.... that boosts a lot of short range spells early game.... snowball and cantrips for instance are always within 30 feet... so 1d3 cantrip gets +1 to damage.... and a +1 to hit... so +2 dex worth of modifiers

and precise shot negates the -4 penalty to hit enemies engaged in melee.... which dex wise its 8 dex worth to counter the penalty....

so total with 2 feats I get +1 to damage.... and for enemies engaged in melee within 30 feet.... its as if my Dex is +10 to hit them....

but early game you have cantrips that start off at 1d3 damage.... with point blank shot giving it +1.... gloves of neophyte a +1.... dragon bloodline a +1..... that 1d3 cantrip is now dealing 4-6 damage.... which you can achieve with a crossblooded sorcerer by time you first wake up in the tavern to pick up the gloves.... otherwise a non dragon bloodline sorcerer can make it 3-5 damage....

magic missile at level 1 deals 1d4+1 damage.... so 2-5 damage for one missile.... no attack roll though but requires a spell resistance check....

so basically a cantrip is like running around with a level 1 magic missile that doesnt expire.... plus you have higher chance to hit with acid splash since its a conjuration cantrip it doesnt need spell resistance check either.... just touch AC....

also I like to equip 2 weapons early on.... a crossbow.... and a longspear.... sorcerers can wield longspears which provide reach to hit... so you can grease up a spot and have the spear ready to attack from behind the tank and take advantage of the +4 to hit bonus against prone enemies

also at level 5 magic missile gets 3 missiles for 1d4+1..... snowball is capped at 5d6 at level 5.... so 3 spell resistance checks to deal 6-15 damage with no attack roll required..... snowball is dealing 5-30 damage on its own.... but buffed with gloves its 10-35 damage.... point blank gives it +1 damage flat.... and if you had a draconic bloodline on top of that it would be 16-41 damage... snowball even wins with bolster metamagic over magic missile.... at level 5 thats 3 missiles so bolster would only add +6 to damage.... snowball would be at 5d6 so +10 to damage...

and you can intensify snowball but not magic missile.... so when I reach level 6 in Act 1 I can use bolstered, intensified snowballs already... just in time for the nasty new enemies in market square after defending the tavern....

but yeah early game I dont have to worry about spell resistance checks cause all my early game spells dont require them.... acid splash cantrip.... snowball.... grease.... web... glitterdust...

Some enemies are immune to electric. I'm not sure that equates to there being "less" enemies resistant to cold. They can be both immune to electric and resist cold..........

And....you talk about using Grease, Web, and Glitterdust....but you put no points into SF feats.....(or Selective MM)? So....you would rather a Snowball (potentially) hit over your enemies failing their saves against Grease/Glitterdust.....? Additionally, as I said, if something is knocked down by Grease....your Snowball's will have a -4 penalty to hit..... Precise Shot does not negate that penalty.........

Don't think doing extra damage on Snowball is worth the drawbacks of a CB Sorc. And if your Sorc is whacking things with a spear, they're not casting Snowballs/cantrips..... Speaking of cantrips, they will do no damage to many enemies because of elemental resistances.

And maybe you didn't read what I wrote about MM, since you keep on bringing up SR. MM can be used to do guaranteed damage to certain dangerous targets at range like spellcasters (the one in Kenabres square, the Gwerm library, etc.), shadows, etc., and is useful for the last fight of the act because of the buff the game gives you. Snowball is close range (and you're playing a Sorc, so the Metamagic is going to cost you, too), and again, if a target is knocked down or tripped, you will suffer a -4 penalty to hit.

At level 6, you've got Haste (and presumably an Extend Rod). Don't think a souped up Snowball is better than that as much as you tout those numbers (and you don't seem to be accounting for cold resistance with those numbers). A potential benefit I don't think you've mentioned is the Stagger effect, which could be useful, but you're not taking SF feats..........

I dont see a problem....

I mean when I use glitterdust I dont care whether they make the save or not.... my sole purpose to use it is to knock enemies out of invisibility or stealth

same with snowball.... dont care if they pass or fail the save for the stun... thats not what my goal is when I use it...

same with web.... save or fail dont matter to me.... just the fact that it can slow enemies down is the main thing for me

im not saying magic missile is useless... it does have its perks.... but snowball just deals more damage.... ive been able to 1 turn beat the lich in lost chapel thanks to snowball and metamagic...

and actually I dont learn haste as my first level 3 spell.... no need to.... I been liking lightning bolt as first choice actually... reason for that is because im level 6 by time im ready to tackle gray garrison.... dont need haste cause of the buff you get during that run... so I wait till after I clear Act 1 before I get haste.... otherwise I just have Nenio cast it for the few fights before then... which I hit level 7 before I even leave the Camp in Act 2 so I can get haste pretty quickly...

also early game I have multiple weapons at my disposal.... longspear in secondary weapon slot in case I wanna melee enemies prone.... or before I get precise shot feat.... but early on its mostly heavy crossbow im carrying and I alternate between that and cantrip depending on range or damage resistances....

but early on I push for precise shot and point blank shot ASAP.... then metamagic selective, bolster, and intensified.... which I can have all those by time I reach level 5 as a seeker sorcerer.... then heighten metamagic and my spell focus feats...

having metamagic feats early is helpful in expanding my spellbook as early as possible... a sorcerer gets access to level 3 spells by 6th level... so having those metamagics already by level 5 means I can slap multiple metamagics on my spells for that new spell level when I hit level 6... bolster and intensified snowball is now a level 3 spell.... and I get heighten metamagic at level 7 so that when I hit level 8 I can slap that onto my bolstered and intensified snowball into a 4th level spell... not to mention heightening my selective grease, web and glitterdust spells too...


and because I dont need to worry about taking any spell penetration feats as an Azata mythic path down the road.... my spell focus comes online by the time im ready to start using them.... for instance... I like taking mythic best jokes at rank 3.... by then I already have both spell focus enchantment feats... plus more gear to make it more effective by then

[ptirodaktill]

The only way to deal dmg in act 1 is to start as Rowdy, then use huricane bow+enlarge humanoid and shoot vital strike supported by true strike form heavy x-bow. Snowball? Forget it, it does nothing and it won`t even hit w/o true strike.
You will walk the Arcane trickster route and its better as elemental specialist rather that Sorcerer, cause you never ever want to cast a spell that is not maximised/empowered as direct dmg caster and its so inconvinient to cast full-round spells on sorc. Sneack dice help a bit in the begining of ACT 3 but you will ditch them later, cause bolstered spells are superior in terms of dmg output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6KJn7stf6E
Its kinda O-kay , but nowhere near the level it was on release.

[revan1229]

Soul a écrit :

revan1229 a écrit :

Some enemies are immune to electric. I'm not sure that equates to there being "less" enemies resistant to cold. They can be both immune to electric and resist cold..........

And....you talk about using Grease, Web, and Glitterdust....but you put no points into SF feats.....(or Selective MM)? So....you would rather a Snowball (potentially) hit over your enemies failing their saves against Grease/Glitterdust.....? Additionally, as I said, if something is knocked down by Grease....your Snowball's will have a -4 penalty to hit..... Precise Shot does not negate that penalty.........

Don't think doing extra damage on Snowball is worth the drawbacks of a CB Sorc. And if your Sorc is whacking things with a spear, they're not casting Snowballs/cantrips..... Speaking of cantrips, they will do no damage to many enemies because of elemental resistances.

And maybe you didn't read what I wrote about MM, since you keep on bringing up SR. MM can be used to do guaranteed damage to certain dangerous targets at range like spellcasters (the one in Kenabres square, the Gwerm library, etc.), shadows, etc., and is useful for the last fight of the act because of the buff the game gives you. Snowball is close range (and you're playing a Sorc, so the Metamagic is going to cost you, too), and again, if a target is knocked down or tripped, you will suffer a -4 penalty to hit.

At level 6, you've got Haste (and presumably an Extend Rod). Don't think a souped up Snowball is better than that as much as you tout those numbers (and you don't seem to be accounting for cold resistance with those numbers). A potential benefit I don't think you've mentioned is the Stagger effect, which could be useful, but you're not taking SF feats..........

I dont see a problem....

I mean when I use glitterdust I dont care whether they make the save or not.... my sole purpose to use it is to knock enemies out of invisibility or stealth

same with snowball.... dont care if they pass or fail the save for the stun... thats not what my goal is when I use it...

same with web.... save or fail dont matter to me.... just the fact that it can slow enemies down is the main thing for me

im not saying magic missile is useless... it does have its perks.... but snowball just deals more damage.... ive been able to 1 turn beat the lich in lost chapel thanks to snowball and metamagic...

and actually I dont learn haste as my first level 3 spell.... no need to.... I been liking lightning bolt as first choice actually... reason for that is because im level 6 by time im ready to tackle gray garrison.... dont need haste cause of the buff you get during that run... so I wait till after I clear Act 1 before I get haste.... otherwise I just have Nenio cast it for the few fights before then... which I hit level 7 before I even leave the Camp in Act 2 so I can get haste pretty quickly...

also early game I have multiple weapons at my disposal.... longspear in secondary weapon slot in case I wanna melee enemies prone.... or before I get precise shot feat.... but early on its mostly heavy crossbow im carrying and I alternate between that and cantrip depending on range or damage resistances....

but early on I push for precise shot and point blank shot ASAP.... then metamagic selective, bolster, and intensified.... which I can have all those by time I reach level 5 as a seeker sorcerer.... then heighten metamagic and my spell focus feats...

having metamagic feats early is helpful in expanding my spellbook as early as possible... a sorcerer gets access to level 3 spells by 6th level... so having those metamagics already by level 5 means I can slap multiple metamagics on my spells for that new spell level when I hit level 6... bolster and intensified snowball is now a level 3 spell.... and I get heighten metamagic at level 7 so that when I hit level 8 I can slap that onto my bolstered and intensified snowball into a 4th level spell... not to mention heightening my selective grease, web and glitterdust spells too...


and because I dont need to worry about taking any spell penetration feats as an Azata mythic path down the road.... my spell focus comes online by the time im ready to start using them.... for instance... I like taking mythic best jokes at rank 3.... by then I already have both spell focus enchantment feats... plus more gear to make it more effective by then

.....So then why use Grease? Because you like the animation........? And just curious, what difficulty do you play on?

And, yes. We've covered this..... Snowball does have a higher ceiling. But it requires 2 feats to hit (and is penalized when used on prone enemies), has shorter range (on a Sorc, no less), and is an element that's resisted. MM has longer range to quickly snipe priority enemies like shadows (Snowball's not so helpful here), lets you focus on SF feats, is good for interrupting spellcasters with its multiple hit, and it's good for the final fight. Damage is not the only part of the equation, especially when you can have an enlarged 2H Seelah with a 15-20 crit range blessed falchion in Act 1.........

If you're running Nenio for Haste that's fine, but Lightning Bolt as a first choice......? When demons are immune to electricity and you're focusing on cold as your element of choice......?

[revan1229]

ptirodaktill a écrit :

The only way to deal dmg in act 1 is to start as Rowdy, then use huricane bow+enlarge humanoid and shoot vital strike supported by true strike form heavy x-bow. Snowball? Forget it, it does nothing and it won`t even hit w/o true strike.
You will walk the Arcane trickster route and its better as elemental specialist rather that Sorcerer, cause you never ever want to cast a spell that is not maximised/empowered as direct dmg caster and its so inconvinient to cast full-round spells on sorc. Sneack dice help a bit in the begining of ACT 3 but you will ditch them later, cause bolstered spells are superior in terms of dmg output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6KJn7stf6E
Its kinda O-kay , but nowhere near the level it was on release.

Agreed, that this is the best way to eke out damage in Act 1. I did something similar during my Trickster run. Vital Strike sniping held up surprisingly well through around middle of Act 2.

In addition to the metamagic penalty, Sorc getting their progression delayed further from the Rowdy dip is also annoying.

[Soul]

revan1229 a écrit :

Soul a écrit :

I dont see a problem....

I mean when I use glitterdust I dont care whether they make the save or not.... my sole purpose to use it is to knock enemies out of invisibility or stealth

same with snowball.... dont care if they pass or fail the save for the stun... thats not what my goal is when I use it...

same with web.... save or fail dont matter to me.... just the fact that it can slow enemies down is the main thing for me

im not saying magic missile is useless... it does have its perks.... but snowball just deals more damage.... ive been able to 1 turn beat the lich in lost chapel thanks to snowball and metamagic...

and actually I dont learn haste as my first level 3 spell.... no need to.... I been liking lightning bolt as first choice actually... reason for that is because im level 6 by time im ready to tackle gray garrison.... dont need haste cause of the buff you get during that run... so I wait till after I clear Act 1 before I get haste.... otherwise I just have Nenio cast it for the few fights before then... which I hit level 7 before I even leave the Camp in Act 2 so I can get haste pretty quickly...

also early game I have multiple weapons at my disposal.... longspear in secondary weapon slot in case I wanna melee enemies prone.... or before I get precise shot feat.... but early on its mostly heavy crossbow im carrying and I alternate between that and cantrip depending on range or damage resistances....

but early on I push for precise shot and point blank shot ASAP.... then metamagic selective, bolster, and intensified.... which I can have all those by time I reach level 5 as a seeker sorcerer.... then heighten metamagic and my spell focus feats...

having metamagic feats early is helpful in expanding my spellbook as early as possible... a sorcerer gets access to level 3 spells by 6th level... so having those metamagics already by level 5 means I can slap multiple metamagics on my spells for that new spell level when I hit level 6... bolster and intensified snowball is now a level 3 spell.... and I get heighten metamagic at level 7 so that when I hit level 8 I can slap that onto my bolstered and intensified snowball into a 4th level spell... not to mention heightening my selective grease, web and glitterdust spells too...


and because I dont need to worry about taking any spell penetration feats as an Azata mythic path down the road.... my spell focus comes online by the time im ready to start using them.... for instance... I like taking mythic best jokes at rank 3.... by then I already have both spell focus enchantment feats... plus more gear to make it more effective by then

.....So then why use Grease? Because you like the animation........? And just curious, what difficulty do you play on?

And, yes. We've covered this..... Snowball does have a higher ceiling. But it requires 2 feats to hit (and is penalized when used on prone enemies), has shorter range (on a Sorc, no less), and is an element that's resisted. MM has longer range to quickly snipe priority enemies like shadows (Snowball's not so helpful here), lets you focus on SF feats, is good for interrupting spellcasters with its multiple hit, and it's good for the final fight. Damage is not the only part of the equation, especially when you can have an enlarged 2H Seelah with a 15-20 crit range blessed falchion in Act 1.........

If you're running Nenio for Haste that's fine, but Lightning Bolt as a first choice......? When demons are immune to electricity and you're focusing on cold as your element of choice......?

I play on normal mode with increased enemies

and I didnt say snowball is my element of choice.... I actually play seeker over crossblooded and go elemental bloodline to convert spells into my bloodline.... I pick up draconic bloodline later on with second bloodline mythic feat... but typically I play water or air bloodlines

lightning bolt I get early for the range.... and I just like the way it looks..... still use fireball when needed that I pick up from the red salamander ring in Act 2..... but lightning bolt I find to be useful early on with some fights.... mainly undead.... like the ones who roam the path in nameless ruins.... or Sosiel's cemetary quest.... and the undead ambush in Drezen

which typically im not gonna snowball a prone enemy... unless there is a group together and I have bolster metamagic for the splash damage...

but early game I save my spells to last longer so I dont have to rest.... like starting from waking in the tavern... I clear my way to the tower first.... travel back to tavern and report quest and get more xp... then clear out market square except for Embers unlock trigger.... leave map to go to Daeran's.... pick up Nenio along the way.... drop off gear at Daerans and head for a beeline to Irabeth's house... kill enemies outside... and THEN rest.... that path would have me hit level 4 before i'd reach tower and level 5 by time I reach the church in market square.... and i'd be level 6 by time I talk to storyteller in the tavern....

so I have to make due with just level 1 spells till I clear outside of Irabeths house... even though i'd level up before hitting tower with new level 2 spells.... you have no spells per day for level 2 spells till you rest first.... which I dont till I reach that point I mentioned... at that point I kinda need glitterdust to help take out the succubus... just to reveal her so my tank can go in there and attack her directly before she gets a chance to sneak out and target other characters...