Act 1, spellcaster, tips?

[Ignis Imperia]

Hey,

I play on Core dififculty and I have 2 runs going, one is Bard that I play offstream and is going well, it's currently in late act 3 and having a lot of good times with it.

However then there's my stream character, a crossblood sorcerer (green dragon + earth elemental, wanted to try something a little different so focusing acid element), and I only managed to get her through act 1 yesterday and I have to say I am not sure how to properly play a spellcaster in this game clearly.

How do people play a spellcaster like sorcerer properly? In act 1 until you get mythic rank 1 you can't get ascendant element, so you are stuck using your weapons anyway (and being bad at it for obvious reasons) or debuffing enemies (or using only magic missile), now I'm moving into act 2 but I really feel severely underpowered compared to just about everyone on my party, because:

Ulbrig is absolute beast the moment he gets permanent polymorph
Camellia is... well she's always a beast with passive 26 AC before buffs and good spell variety as well as self buffs
Ember is just as good as I am in spellcasting except she's focused on fire and also can use hexes
Wenduag is just better despite I accidentally built her into longbow instead of throwing axes as I intended and deals massive amounts of damage with it nonetheless and utterly destroying the enemies from afar while requiring no micromanagement
Daeran is a healer and doing very good job of it while also delivering A LOT of good buffs.

So.. What exactly is my strength that I can bring to the table? I really feel kind of lost in what I'm supposed to do to not feel like anytime I'm looking at my party I go "Right, who could we replace with someone else to be better off - ah... of course... me"

._. Thank you all for any tips, I thought after 180 hours I finally have pretty good understanding of the game but the moment I touch a spellcaster character that illusion crumbled to dust to say the least. :D

[kotor_fan]

Unless you're going for heavily specialized build, early spells you have are all about disabling enemies.

Grease, Web, Hideous Laughter (2nd most broken spell in the game) and so on.

Might already know, but pick point blank shot and precise shot early. Mandatory for touch spells.

You absolutely do not need ascendant element at first, or even second, mythic rank.
Simply put, you don't have spellpower to utilize that.
Your spell selection is small, does little damage (unless you're focused on snowball, the bane of gods and most powerful weapon in the entire game) and you won't be adding much that your companions can't already do.

Meanwhile 1 grease can isolate whole area (bonus points if you've got Selective metamagic), hideous laughter + mythic Best Jokes can, no joking here, put whole set of enemies on the ground for entire fight.
Pits (reflex save) + Selective is amazing as well for non-flying enemies.
Snowball + changing to your element (since you picked Green dragon) + gloves that add +1 damage per dice for damage casting.

Spellcasters have rough start, as you noticed, but if you focus on utility, you can absolutely wreck havoc early game with your companions mopping up.

Here's a small thing so you avoid that trap: Unlike DnD, fireball sucks. Reflex save for half and most enemies have "Reflex save = No damage taken".

TLDR:
Utility on early levels, not damage, snowball alone can carry you there, even without any specialization in it.

Mythic rank 1 - Best jokes or Additional spell casts or Favorite metamagic (selective). Ascendant element is wasted since you don't have tools to utilize it yet.
I personally roll with Abundant Casting on M1, Metamagic on M2 (useful throughout whole game), Ascendant Element on M3.

Also, unlike communal version, single target protection from evil/chaos/etc. is minute/level. Extremely useful, and you'll be swimming in lvl 1 spell slots on sorc.

[Soul]

I pretty much exclusively play sorcerer lol....

you have a good options early game actually that can really turn the tide as a sorcerer.... especially if you do the level adjustment trick to make it so you maximize xp gain before you get a full party

selective metamagic is awesome for one.... selective grease and selective web are my favorite turtle defense buffs for ambushes or like defenders heart defense.... grease has chance to cause prone condition which makes melee characters more effective to hit +4 if I recall to hit enemies that are prone with melee weapons.... plus web has a chance to immobilize the enemy which while nice I tend to rely on the slow it provides to prevent enemy movement from reaching you and attacking in same turn....

also you have demoralize ability if your charisma and persuasion is high you can use that to weaken enemy.... also light of heaven ability you get in Maze.... the light of heaven can be used to knock enemies out of stealth or invisibility btw.... same with the shaman and witches chant and cackle ability... which it all stacks with their evil eye abilities too...

also I like to build my sorcerer as enchanter / evocation specialist..... which early on I focus on the evocation side with metamagic....

selective for grease and web....

bolster and intensify for snowball.... which is a conjuration spell but dont matter since only save for it is stun.... plus it doesnt require a spell resistance check so early game and even mid game thats your main damage source to melt things... metamagic intensify can actually make snowball reach from 5d6 to 10d6 by level 10... which scorching ray is only 12d6 by level 11.... plus the later requires a spell resistance check

I also like to prioritize point blank shot and precise shot early on so I can hit better ranged with snowball, crossbow, or cantrips....

and while crossblooded can be nice.... to me it just isnt nearly as effective as seeker sorcerer.... seeker sorcerer gets 3 extra feats and bonus to trickery.... as in by time my seeker meets Aru im already the best trickery character in my party.... with points into trickery and one point of stealth plus the cape found in Irabeths house.... you can pretty much make camellia and woljiff obsolete in terms of stealth while traveling map and trickery checks.... at least in Act 1 and 2... with 16 dex, 1 point in stealth, and cape I can be the parties camo when camping and traveling in Act 1 and 2... and the trickery bonus is really nice.... half your class level is added to trickery

also as crossblooded you lose the first spell of each rank.... which can be offset a bit with getting second bloodline mythic feat into Arcane.... but.... still in my calculations I get better combinations of spells just going seeker with one level dip into loremaster for greater command...

which I go elemental bloodline as seeker starting off.... that way I can get ascendant element first mythic rank and convert my snowballs to my energy type... damage wise you can also buy gloves of neophyte from tavernkeeper in Act 1.... they provide +1 per die in damage for level 1 spells and below.... which snowball increased with metamagic still counts... its basically like a free draconic bloodline for level 1 and 0 spells....

which if you got the gloves.... thats a +1 per die..... draconic bloodline is +1 per die.... point blank shot is +1 for enemies within 30 feet... which cantrips are within that range always... by time you reach tavern for first time you can already turn your 1-3 damage cantrips into 4-6 damage.... which acid splash is king early game since its your damaging cantrip that requires no spell resistance check.... your already good but if you went with other bloodline its still worth converting your element and still use acid splash as main cantrip...

also spells like fireball and hellfire ray you dont have to actually learn.... just equip the red salamander ring and apply metamagic to fireball and take off the ring.... your fireball with metamagic will stay in your spellbook.... also I tend to metamagic those 2 times per level.... one with selective enchantment and another with bolster or intensify..... that way I have option to use both depending if allies are in range of spell or not.... I color code them too.... like all my spells with selective attached to them are green....

also I do use pots and scrolls early game when I dont have a lot of spells.... potion of mage armor for instance is great.... lasts 1 hour which is enough to have on for map clearing early game like market square... I also do party with Nenio for more spells and utility.... so 2 arcane casters.... Nenio is early game buffer and gets enduring line of spells ASAP..... and I turn her into an eldritch knight pretty early to add to damage... which she can get pretty good with melee once she has a +4 belt of giant strength through crusade reward from one of the armies after lepers smile...

while my sorcerer is damage / CC....

[kotor_fan]

Originally posted by Soul:

I color code them too.... like all my spells with selective attached to them are green....

And maximized/Bolstered/Intensified ones in red?

No real comment on your comment (other than agreeing with it), just had to comment on color thing since I do the same with green color for "safe" spells.

[FunkyMonkey]

Best success for me with spell casters early game has been to focus on Conjuration spells. Spell focus and Greater spell focus Conj. and Selective metamagic for Grease (Conj) and Glitterdust (Conj) make a lot of the early Acts a lot easier. The good thing is that if you want to stick with acid spells, most of the acid spells are Conjuration.

Early levels you should focus on CC and buffs. Grease and Glitterdust I already mentioned, selective makes those just nasty. For buffs grab things like Enlarge and Blur. I might stay away from Bull's strength and the like as a Sorcerer because they fall off and you can't change your spells like a Wizard can. Only take things that you are confident you can use through the whole game.

[TamTroll]

If you're okay with mods, personally i recommend the Scaling Cantrips mod, it lets your spellcasters have a basic attack that isn't just a crossbow, letting them focus on spellcraft rather then spells AND crossbows. Also adds a handful of cantrips to make sure all the major (non-sonic) elements are covered. All this together allows your spellcasters to better conserve their spells while still acting like actual spellcasters. Take a level or two in rogue, and you can sneak attack with your cantrips too.

You will need to add a second mod to be able to earn achievements while playing with it though. for whatever reason this game disables achievements in modded play.

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/64

[Immortal Reaver]

I buy Wands and autocast them. Otherwise I use Grease, Winter Grasp and buffs on harder fights.

[Soul]

Originally posted by kotor_fan:

Originally posted by Soul:

I color code them too.... like all my spells with selective attached to them are green....

And maximized/Bolstered/Intensified ones in red?

No real comment on your comment (other than agreeing with it), just had to comment on color thing since I do the same with green color for "safe" spells.

lol actually its blue for other metamagic spells..... green for selective spells and blue for damage spells

[revan1229]

Originally posted by kotor_fan:

Unless you're going for heavily specialized build, early spells you have are all about disabling enemies.

Grease, Web, Hideous Laughter (2nd most broken spell in the game) and so on.

Might already know, but pick point blank shot and precise shot early. Mandatory for touch spells.

You absolutely do not need ascendant element at first, or even second, mythic rank.
Simply put, you don't have spellpower to utilize that.
Your spell selection is small, does little damage (unless you're focused on snowball, the bane of gods and most powerful weapon in the entire game) and you won't be adding much that your companions can't already do.

Don't think you need PBS and Precise Shot that early. I would recommend Spell Focus feats for Conjuration, Metamagic (Bolster and Selective), and possibly Spell Pen, depending on what Mythic Path you plan on taking.

Hideous Laughter isn't that broken, since it's mind-affecting (and Snowball is the most powerful weapon in the entire game???). Stinking Cloud + Corrupter is way more OP. If going Loremaster, Winter's Grasp is also really good early.

[revan1229]

As others have said, focus on Conjuration disabling spells and buffs in the early game. They make a huge difference for your party. Arcane casters start turning into WMD around Act 3.

Also, don't forget your Light of the Angels ability. It dazzles any enemy in range with no save.

[Ignis Imperia]

Thank you all for suggestions, unfortunately I seem to have asked too late as I already had my first mythic rank and invested it into ascendant element (acid), which to be fair gives me decent amount of dps early, but I definitely feel like Ember still outperforms me with her fire magic AND she has good CC on top of that too, and Nenio just puts us all to shame with her phantasmal killer.

One thing I am wondering now though since for the first time on this playthrough I decided to be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and try using cackle + chant to constantly refresh fortune/misfortune/etc. hexes with Ember, is there a way to get Ember to autocast Cackle when I don't move her that turn on her move action? I don't want to necessarily spend 15 minutes prebuffing the cackle before every fight but it's also very tedious to do in middle of battle due to having to micro it every turn, I tried rightclicking it but she just doesn't do it anyway...

[Drake]

For stuff like cackle, I just switched to turn based mode. No micro management issue since you have to do everything every turn, and it becomes actually faster with time because you can speed up battles with optimised turns (in real time mode you are really wasting several turn on some chars in battle because you can't focus on everything).

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by Drake:

For stuff like cackle, I just switched to turn based mode. No micro management issue since you have to do everything every turn, and it becomes actually faster with time because you can speed up battles with optimised turns (in real time mode you are really wasting several turn on some chars in battle because you can't focus on everything).

Not necessarily, I actually find it really depends what you're fighting. For instance, if your goal is to kill something in opening, it's always better to go RTwP, because then you can initiate 6-12 (depending if you have pets) charges at once and they will all hit at same time and all get surprise attack too, aka you're getting 12-24 attacks as opposed to 2 in turn-based, yes you can still attack sometimes in Turn-based during the surprise round, however you have to have very good positioning and sometimes it just blocks you from charging or the charge bugs out altogether.

I definitely see appeal of Turn-based as I am a turn-based player in most games myself, but I'd say there's not a definite better mode in this game, turn-based however I find is better for swarm fights by far, because swarms are utterly brutal in RTWP, especially vescavors, but change into turn-based and they no longer get to bully everyone at once since they can't move at all times.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Ignis Imperia:

Originally posted by Drake:

For stuff like cackle, I just switched to turn based mode. No micro management issue since you have to do everything every turn, and it becomes actually faster with time because you can speed up battles with optimised turns (in real time mode you are really wasting several turn on some chars in battle because you can't focus on everything).

Not necessarily, I actually find it really depends what you're fighting. For instance, if your goal is to kill something in opening, it's always better to go RTwP, because then you can initiate 6-12 (depending if you have pets) charges at once and they will all hit at same time and all get surprise attack too, aka you're getting 12-24 attacks as opposed to 2 in turn-based, yes you can still attack sometimes in Turn-based during the surprise round, however you have to have very good positioning and sometimes it just blocks you from charging or the charge bugs out altogether.

I definitely see appeal of Turn-based as I am a turn-based player in most games myself, but I'd say there's not a definite better mode in this game, turn-based however I find is better for swarm fights by far, because swarms are utterly brutal in RTWP, especially vescavors, but change into turn-based and they no longer get to bully everyone at once since they can't move at all times.

sorcerer excels at turn based.... not as much as real time though....

main reason is metamagic cast by spontaneous casters get a penalty to their casting time.... as a sorcerer real time your gonna see a lot harder to setup and control the battlefield unless you use pause a lot....

in turn based though you can be more strategic and have a better guarantee of your spells landing their hits

of course getting in the mythic feat sorcerous reflex does make you more useful for real time mode..... getting it early means you always have a quicken spell in your pocket at the start of a round which if the spell qualifies for it is a swift action.... great for popping off say hideous laughter with best jokes....

so basically 1v1 if your playing in real time with a sorcerer vs a caster.... even with a pump to your initiative so you can go first... the spell cast delay from metamagic will make it so the enemy will get a turn before you finish your "turn" from casting.... sorcererous reflex mythic ability will help with that though...

also positioning helps.... sorcerers I treat differently from wizards.... wizards in the back safe and sound.... my sorcerer is near the front line though.... like right behind my tank wall.... this means im already near the front line and dont have to move to engage with spells as much.... can just 5ft step and still cast metamagic spells....

but even early game you can buff with spells pretty early to make your sorcerer tankier.... mage armor and shield spell stack for a +8 total to AC.... Dex 16 gives a +3 bonus.... and can get an early belt of Dex in gray garrison for a +4 bonus.... thats +12 by end of Act 1.... add on a dragon bloodline and natural AC goes up too...

which btw... I dont wear armor on my horses... I just slap em with mage armor since it provides +4 armor and doesnt lower their dex like wearing heavier armor does...

[jonnin]

What everyone is dancing around is that in this universe, against these enemy types, and in this game where core+ targets are seriously difficult, the damage caster is at a major disadvantage.

lets compare the damage caster to like a slayer/rowdy archer for single target. The caster has to overcome ranged touch AC (while touch ac is low, caster BAB sucks ...) and spell resistance, and element resistance (fixable after early game but spending 6 levels doing like 5 damage each for your 4 spells a day is not fun) just to land a hit that is usually less than impressive. The slayer/rowdy takes his one vital strike shot at full BAB against the target's armor, and if he hits with a sneak attack, he reduces both its damage resist and AC from class abilities while nailing it for 3 or 4 times what the wizard/sorcerer did in damage, with far less concern that his arrow might be mostly resisted or ignored. Lan (monk/rowdy for me) is hitting 60 damage per round and usually hits by the time I leave the tavern first time, while gandalf is lucky to hit for like 10-15. Lan can shoot arrows all day and even after fatigued. Gandalf has like 6 shots. I don't know if gandalf is gonna be awesome at level 15 because I can't stand trying to get him there.

its similar for aoe bombs too. Mog the melee machine can run up with a longspear and great cleave 8 guys for 25+ damage each every round for 18 hours a day, only has to content with armor class (and some physical resist before he gets a good weapon, but lets say I have... finnian ... which ignores all the early game DR). Mean while gandalf lobs whatever flavor of aoe and you get 4 of the 8 failed to overcome spell resist, 3 of the 4 that are left made a reflex save, the one that failed the save took 10 less damage because its a demon that resists every element there is, and his damage looks like 6-8 damage done to half the targets. And just like before gandalf has 4 or 6 aoe bombs per day while mog is still up there doing the sit & spin routine and actually killing the bad guys.

This is the world you live in. As others already said, being a sidekick to the A team who greases up the ground or summons 25 skeletons to melee the crap out of the bad guys or conjures up the all mighty sarlacc pit under them works great. You just can't do significant damage for so many levels that you forget why you wanted to be a spell caster in the first place. I am sure it works at high levels... but I salute people with the patience to get there.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by jonnin:

What everyone is dancing around is that in this universe, against these enemy types, and in this game where core+ targets are seriously difficult, the damage caster is at a major disadvantage.

lets compare the damage caster to like a slayer/rowdy archer for single target. The caster has to overcome ranged touch AC (while touch ac is low, caster BAB sucks ...) and spell resistance, and element resistance (fixable after early game but spending 6 levels doing like 5 damage each for your 4 spells a day is not fun) just to land a hit that is usually less than impressive. The slayer/rowdy takes his one vital strike shot at full BAB against the target's armor, and if he hits with a sneak attack, he reduces both its damage resist and AC from class abilities while nailing it for 3 or 4 times what the wizard/sorcerer did in damage, with far less concern that his arrow might be mostly resisted or ignored. Lan (monk/rowdy for me) is hitting 60 damage per round and usually hits by the time I leave the tavern first time, while gandalf is lucky to hit for like 10-15. Lan can shoot arrows all day and even after fatigued. Gandalf has like 6 shots. I don't know if gandalf is gonna be awesome at level 15 because I can't stand trying to get him there.

its similar for aoe bombs too. Mog the melee machine can run up with a longspear and great cleave 8 guys for 25+ damage each every round for 18 hours a day, only has to content with armor class (and some physical resist before he gets a good weapon, but lets say I have... finnian ... which ignores all the early game DR). Mean while gandalf lobs whatever flavor of aoe and you get 4 of the 8 failed to overcome spell resist, 3 of the 4 that are left made a reflex save, the one that failed the save took 10 less damage because its a demon that resists every element there is, and his damage looks like 6-8 damage done to half the targets. And just like before gandalf has 4 or 6 aoe bombs per day while mog is still up there doing the sit & spin routine and actually killing the bad guys.

This is the world you live in. As others already said, being a sidekick to the A team who greases up the ground or summons 25 skeletons to melee the crap out of the bad guys or conjures up the all mighty sarlacc pit under them works great. You just can't do significant damage for so many levels that you forget why you wanted to be a spell caster in the first place. I am sure it works at high levels... but I salute people with the patience to get there.

What you seem to be missing is that this is not out of the ordinary for these types of games. "Linear Warrior, Quadratic Wizard." And you're overestimating how long it takes for them to come online. Damage casters come online around Act 3 (can be earlier if you've got another caster in the party). That's not exactly high levels. And moving from CC/buffing to damage is easy to do in this game. Bombers are in a bit of a rougher spot, I'll admit. They don't scale to the level that casters do, but they're not bad at all.

Low caster BAB is pretty much irrelevant if you're a ray caster. Presumably, your caster would have any buffs that your martials would have to hit, so it's much easier to get them above the to-hit threshold. Additionally, you get Gloves of Arcane Eradication early. But damage casters are better off with AOE (unless going Trickster). Large AOE with unresistable damage to the large, spread out mobs this game throws at you is not something the typical martial can do.