Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

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ArcticTrance May 13, 2023 @ 7:49am
Necromancer question..
How do you actually use Summon Monster?

I made a Wizard (cruoromancer), Dhampir, Ajibachann, Gebian Necro, with feats of a necromancer..

However, so far, all I seem to be doing is damage based spells from some sort of World of Warcraft Frost mage. Trying for more of a siphon, DOT, debuff, undead wielding type. All the spells I got seem to work, but Summon Monster seems to do absolutely nothing. I saw it in my spell book, but the list of spells i can add to the bar and use, dont seem to indicate it.

Granted, I am VERY early on.. Like still in the maze early. But it would be nice to see SOME sort of necromatic power other then fear.

I tried to use a guide to give me the basics, as I am very new to this DND stuff. I thought I would try it, since I enjoy games like wastelander and arcanum.

Guide I used to help me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tJlvgq7gGY&t=362s&ab_channel=RPGDivision
Last edited by ArcticTrance; May 13, 2023 @ 7:51am
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Gracey Face May 13, 2023 @ 7:54am 
Originally posted by ArcticTrance:
How do you actually use Summon Monster?

I made a Wizard (cruoromancer), Dhampir, Ajibachann, Gebian Necro, with feats of a necromancer..

However, so far, all I seem to be doing is damage based spells from some sort of World of Warcraft Frost mage. Trying for more of a siphon, DOT, debuff, undead wielding type. All the spells I got seem to work, but Summon Monster seems to do absolutely nothing. I saw it in my spell book, but the list of spells i can add to the bar and use, dont seem to indicate it.

Granted, I am VERY early on.. Like still in the maze early. But it would be nice to see SOME sort of necromatic power other then fear.

I tried to use a guide to give me the basics, as I am very new to this DND stuff. I thought I would try it, since I enjoy games like wastelander and arcanum.

Guide I used to help me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tJlvgq7gGY&t=362s&ab_channel=RPGDivision

Summon X spells usually have a variety of monsters they can summon, this requires you to click the arrow above the spell's icon in your spell menu or hotbar which will open up the submenu allowing you to choose what specific things you want to summon. Often it is better to just drag things from this sub menu to your hotbar instead.

Is this the problem you're having with it?

Also if you are using a memorized slot caster like a wizard, remember that you can't just cast things from your spellbook, you need to put them in to your prepared slots (left side of the spellbook screen) and then they will be usable after you rest. But you only have the spells you have in memory slots.

So say you have 3 memory slots, you put a magic missile, a summon X and a grease spell in to your 3 slots. You can't cast either of them 3 times, you can only cast each once. If you want to cast something more than once you need to put it in more than 1 memory slot.


Oh and something to add, since you're probably not far in the game. Summoners don't work well in the 3.5/Pathfinder ruleset. The creatures you summon with the summon spells are too weak to be worth summoning. If you're playing on lower difficulties it might be fine but core or above with a couple of exceptions that take advantage of overpowered or broken rules summons aren't worth casting.
Last edited by Gracey Face; May 13, 2023 @ 7:57am
Raikon May 13, 2023 @ 8:18am 
Well in the video he says that going a pure undead summoner isnt viable, since there arent enough spells that summon undead.

Summons can indeed be fun and powerful. The lich can do a minion based playstyle, around summons and repurposing. Thats more of an advanced playstyle though. Im not sure you should delve into that, with little knowledge.
ArcticTrance May 13, 2023 @ 8:20am 
I will have to play with it.. However, it seems to be in the spell book, but the bar and the little tray that pops up does (even the I & II tab) do not seem to have summon monster. I tried to move it from the spell book to bar, but it doesnt seem to want to do it. Almost as if its a innate ability or something.

As for the 'not liking the video'.. I will have to agree about the frost giants. This was more me testing out how the necromancers seem to generally work. As I said, I am new to this genre of game that are magical DnD stuff. So I am spending a ton of time trying to just learn how to play it, no less figuring out what class means what.
Raikon May 13, 2023 @ 8:34am 
Imagine using that frost giant in a little tiny tavern. Having him block all your party members from entering the door or attacking.
Immortal Reaver May 13, 2023 @ 9:28am 
The best summons are from Items and Mythic path. And lvl 17-20 summons

Originally posted by ArcticTrance:
I will have to play with it.. However, it seems to be in the spell book, but the bar and the little tray that pops up does (even the I & II tab) do not seem to have summon monster. I tried to move it from the spell book to bar, but it doesnt seem to want to do it. Almost as if its a innate ability or something.
You do not put spells from spellbook to hotbar. Above hotbar there is S A B icons. S is for Spells, A for Abilities, B for Belt (items). You need to use S icon, it will roll up bar with all spells you have prepared (separated by lvl 0,1,2.... at the left), from there you can either use the spells or drag them onto hotbar.
If you have 0 on spell it means you need to rest to use it.
For Monster Summoning you also need to choose the monsters you will summon so it will pop up one one more bar where you choose the monster.

Low level necromatic spells are Ray of Enfeeblement, Cause Fear, Blindness, Scare, Boneshaker.
Last edited by Immortal Reaver; May 13, 2023 @ 9:29am
Storm May 13, 2023 @ 12:29pm 
May I suggest that using "Witch of the Veil" as a debuff necromancer. You get some more strings to play with than the Wizard (cruoromancer) in the aspect of being a necromancer, IMHO.
Gracey Face May 13, 2023 @ 1:31pm 
Originally posted by ArcticTrance:
I will have to play with it.. However, it seems to be in the spell book, but the bar and the little tray that pops up does (even the I & II tab) do not seem to have summon monster. I tried to move it from the spell book to bar, but it doesnt seem to want to do it. Almost as if its a innate ability or something.

Open up the spellbook page. On the right you have your spellbook. On the top of the spellbook section you have a series of numbers from 0-9. On the left you have a picture of your character. Underneath the picture of your character you have a section called "memorized spells".

Your character, since they're a memorization caster, can only cast spells they have memorized. In order to memorize a spell you need to go to one of the spell levels (which are the 0-9 number) and drag spells from your spellbook into the memory slots you have for that level. (The exception is level 0, called cantrips, your character is treated as always having those memorized). You can only cast spells you have memorized, and you can only memorize a certain number of spells per level.

Once you have put the spells into your memory slots you then need to rest. Mechanically after a 6 hour sleep your character as a memorization caster then spends an hour or so reading his spellbook and memorizing the spells you have put into your memory slots. You can then cast them.

Once they are memorized they will appear in your Spell submenu above your hot bar (the S menu, not the A menu which is Abilities). You have to select the tab relating to the spell level you want to cast however to see spells of that level. Once you are on the tab for the spell level you want to cast you can either cast spells out of there or drag them to your hotbar.
ArcticTrance May 13, 2023 @ 2:08pm 
I was able to figure out how to finally get it working. Seems I didn't know you only get certain boxes (at the time 3) to put spells in; even though I had a whole bar filled with abilities. Removed a shield, and put the summon monster one allowed me to summon a wolf.. for like a second. I will have to test it out a little more, but 1 fight for 1 use.. kind of lame.

I will have to check out the Witch of the Veil stuff.. So far, I am not really impressed with this necro attempt. This is a lot to learn.. especially trying to figure out what the dice stuff is all about.

Definitely open to suggestions. I was more hoping for a siphon / plague (DoT) type of caster, with a 1 or so skeleton/undead minions. I heard about the lich thing, later, in act 2 (i think). I will be exploring that.
Gracey Face May 13, 2023 @ 2:50pm 
Originally posted by ArcticTrance:
I will have to test it out a little more, but 1 fight for 1 use.. kind of lame.

Summons are just crap in general. Like I said earlier they're too weak to do anything. In early 3rd edition they had a duration of IIRC 1 minute per caster level which at least meant they stuck around from one fight to the next but in 3.5 and so pathfinder the duration is 6 seconds (1 combat round) per caster level.

You can increase this to 12 seconds per caster level through something you get later on called "metamagic", and then potentially to 24 hours through feats you get later, but for summons at least it just isn't worth it.

The Lich's summon isn't a summon as much as it is an animal companion (that you can't ride). It is also bad, as it has bad stats and doesn't get access to a properly laid out selection of feats or skills and you can select for it to be a cleric or spellcaster but it does not gain access to many spells and has bad casting stats for those spells. It's nice for "flavor" I guess but it is a waste of time to even try to use it.

Also DOTs basically don't exist in pathfinder the same way they do in other RPGs. There are a couple available (though off the top of my head I can't remember how many are actually in this game) but they have problems effecting things due to mechanics like spell resistance or difficulty class. If you go Lich that'll get you closest to what you're wanting as the Lich has a few AOE damage spells centered on itself which also drain health (and that ignore spell resistance, which is the best part of them), but don't get your hopes up that they'll be particularly powerful. But there's no "dreadknight walking around with lifesteal auras" or anything like that in PF.

When you go Lich you will eventually get some spells called repurpose which raise killed enemies to follow you around the map (they despawn if you move to a different map). That is close to what you're thinking of I wager, but you won't really be able to take advantage of that until a fair way into the game. Also it's kind of a pain too because the AI don't think about AOEs or such so your own "undead minions" are liable to kill you.
TOLYAN JIGAN May 13, 2023 @ 3:46pm 
Originally posted by Gracey Face:
Summons are just crap in general.
They are good meat shields in every hard encounters, even if you don't summon monsters beforehand (but you can do this), for example Playful Darkness can't kill your summons before you create new ones.
Daeran can be a perfect summoner, it's really suits his personality - making party everywhere.
azaris May 13, 2023 @ 4:04pm 
Originally posted by Gracey Face:
Originally posted by ArcticTrance:
I will have to test it out a little more, but 1 fight for 1 use.. kind of lame.

Summons are just crap in general. Like I said earlier they're too weak to do anything. In early 3rd edition they had a duration of IIRC 1 minute per caster level which at least meant they stuck around from one fight to the next but in 3.5 and so pathfinder the duration is 6 seconds (1 combat round) per caster level.

You can increase this to 12 seconds per caster level through something you get later on called "metamagic", and then potentially to 24 hours through feats you get later, but for summons at least it just isn't worth it.

Monster Tactician's summons stick around for 1 min/level if you really want to go all-in on it. Animate Dead was a pretty solid early game spell in Kingmaker because undead were immune to a lot of nonsense that game threw at you, but obviously a lot weaker in Wrath when almost every demon has DR and lots of attacks to chew through your trash mobs. Although you do get more unique summoning items, many of which remain viable until the mid-game.
ajfusch May 13, 2023 @ 4:49pm 
There are also 2 hotbars to the left that get filled automatically and can be changed manually just like the hotbar above the portraits.
Gracey Face May 13, 2023 @ 6:04pm 
Originally posted by TOLYAN JIGAN:
Originally posted by Gracey Face:
Summons are just crap in general.
They are good meat shields in every hard encounters, even if you don't summon monsters beforehand (but you can do this), for example Playful Darkness can't kill your summons before you create new ones.
Daeran can be a perfect summoner, it's really suits his personality - making party everywhere.

No, even as meatshields with a couple of exceptions (creeping doom being the main one) they don't even work as meat shields. And creeping doom only works because of the ridiculous swarm mechanics.

The most dangerous thing in the entire world is 10-20 house spiders.
Raikon May 13, 2023 @ 6:18pm 
Summons are fine. They arent as bad as gracey keeps making them out to be. You can definately play on core with summons. Maybe not so much on unfair, but core and below they are perfectly viable.
fox5s May 14, 2023 @ 1:57am 
Summoning works fine on Core. My current run is doing something similar. You mention that you are early and Summons aren't great at THE earliest levels due to their extremely low duration of one round per caster level. ((Oh, and keep an eye out for Extend Rods. They can allow your summons to make to two or (rarely) three fights without needing to recast them.)) You don't want to bother with it until you get to about character level five.

At that time, Animate Dead is probably THE best spell that summons minions. And your Cruoromancer infusion will give them the equivalent of Augment Summoning with no investment needed (other than the class you already took). And if you have spare second level spells that you didn't fill with False Life, Mirror Image, or blasting spells, getting the d3+1 dogs (I'm assuming you have Superior summoning already) is pretty good.

When you hit fourth level spells, the multiple Montitor Lizards or Dire Wolf can situationally be better than another Animate Dead. You have to play that by ear. Now for fifth, the Redcap isn't bad but having a pack of Dire Wolves is actually really nice (an item boosted it to summoning five or six of them instead of the normal max four). They have a lot of hp, bite for a lot of damage, and trip. I had them take down a Minotaur and a rather mean Demon right outside the final boss room of Drezen by themselves while the rest of the party charged a caster. And one even survived just long enough to take a single hit from the boss.

I'm not sure I like Create Undead. It only summons one thing and, while that thing is decently strong and durable, I only end up keeping it memorized because of my free specialization slot. And for the normal slots, there's just too many good spells at that level especially with the Lich ones available. I'll have more room to play once I get that version of Abundant Casting.

All that said, Summoning in general takes a while to come online. The first time I was living the dream and it felt perfect was the Gargoyle cave are around level seven. I had four castings of Animate Dead (two from Camellia), a pack of Monitor Lizards, and a Dire Wolf or two kicking around by the end of it. And most of them were Hasted. Living the dream!

Speaking more to your initial post, yeah, early levels do be like that. I purposely took Evocation as a denied school so that I wouldn't fall into that trap. Most of my level one spells are actually True Strike so that I can guaranteed land my ranged touch spells if I need to. Once you actually hit Lich, you'll get some sweet life drain. I enter fights with about my max health in temp health and end the fight with three to four times my max health in temp health. Stick with it and you'll be living the dream as well.
Last edited by fox5s; May 14, 2023 @ 2:03am
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Date Posted: May 13, 2023 @ 7:49am
Posts: 17