Are rogues viable in WotR?

[Vertigo]

In Kingmaker, rogues were one of the few classes that had dex to damage abilities. With mythic feats, that uniqueness is gone. Several classes get sneak attacks and other similar dodge feats. Anyone can take trickery, and an AT can disarm things at range.

I create this to see if anyone can suggest anything rogues are good for in WotR. The only place I have seen them be somewhat useful is Through the Ashes.

What are your thoughts?

[Drake]

Several other classes can do that stuff yes. The rogue is the only class that can do all of that in a single class, without needing any archetype.

Plus this is an rpg. If you care about metagaming, just make 6 sylvan sorcerers with tanking pets and build 6 ranged touch casters. everything else is obsolete.

If you want to play a rogue, just play a rogue, the class is fine.

[FunkyMonkey]

I like Eldritch scoundrels but don't really play any of the others, at least not as single class.

[Arxkhero]

All classes are viable, despite what people say that dont know how they work.
Rogue is fun to play archetyped or not, depending on what kind of combat you want them to run really.
I personally dont like the caster variant, its probably better to just play a sorc at that point, but they arent bad either.
Lot of daggers with fun effects that a caster probs wouldn't want to use in this game, and the trickster path is kinda op with a rogue, ranger or similar class as the base.
The base rogue... I honestly say go with some fun sneak attack options, and dual a shortsword dagger or double dagger, depending on what you end up with for effects on them... my run with those had without a crit anywhere from 15 to 60 damage ish, and good chances to stun, paralyze, blind and... something or other else.EARLY on i reccomend using Ember, Daeran, Seelah, Lann/Wen, Ulbrig for harrasment and I hired a Druid for support.
Later added a wizard to replace Ember, Lann/Wen was Replaced by Arue our best lady, and the rest are easily switched depending on what you want at the time...
If you DONT know some character names... dont worry about it, you'll probably find them eventually!

[Nonaloth]

Originally posted by Drake:

Several other classes can do that stuff yes. The rogue is the only class that can do all of that in a single class, without needing any archetype.

Plus this is an rpg. If you care about metagaming, just make 6 sylvan sorcerers with tanking pets and build 6 ranged touch casters. everything else is obsolete.

If you want to play a rogue, just play a rogue, the class is fine.

top notch comment.
You said it all.
Can't add anything else....well perhaps one small comment:

Originally posted by Arxkhero:

All classes are viable, despite what people say that dont know how they work.
Rogue is fun to play archetyped or not, depending on what kind of combat you want them to run really.

Yes and no.
A good rogue need a good BBA so you don't miss too mucha nd can deal good sneak attack damage, which is absurd late game, so a slayer will be always better than any rogue in this contest.
IN THE TABLETOP rogues work better for the Roleplay.
for numbers in this virtual game, where a dagger hit makes a character explode, just pick classes that actually hit like drake said. AC touch is good, or very high BBA+mods.

[mk11]

Both the Rowdy and the Thug bring interesting abilities to the table which can work well either single-classed or multi-classed.

[hilburnashua]

So long as you don't expect them to be stealth assassins killing opponents with one attack and then avoiding triggering other nearby enemies, yeah the class works.

But your right in that, for the most part, other classes can do quite a bit of what rogues do. But some of the rogue tricks are quite strong (like the one that applies a dispel magic on each sneak attack). Rogues in Pathfinder are skill monkeys, but we don't have the normal skill list in this game, but a greatly condensed list which makes one of their major perks much less useful. Especially with a 6 person party.

I second mk11 in that the Rowdy is a very different way, and interesting with mythic feats, way to play a rogue. I had a playthrough where I made Camillia a Rowdy with an elven curved blade and she was taking heads right and left.

[CHAO$$$]

Woljif is pretty awesome. If i would want a rogue id just bring him. Great personality, great questline, great lines in general, great VA. Just gotta get him a better weapon for finesse training at around level 10 or sth. Daggers dont cut it (hehe).

[Brother Santodes]

the displaying attack is just char level as caster level which is very low. so depending on the difficult you play on this is utterly broken or will never display anything ever.

i can at least attest that dark lurker is very very funny to play.

[Schlumpsha]

Dark Lurker as a shorty is great. Makes one able to utilize medium shadows as well. Which are way more abudant than large+ ones.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

the displaying attack is just char level as caster level which is very low. so depending on the difficult you play on this is utterly broken or will never display anything ever.

i can at least attest that dark lurker is very very funny to play.

Which is the same as the dispel magic spell. The spell uses caster level only (it doesn't involved DC, so most caster feats don't work with it, only spell specialization that gives +1 to CL for only one spell, so you need 3 feats for just +1, the dispel feats are a recent addition with the last DLC). And contrary to dispel magic, you can spam dispel attack since you'll do it for each sneak attack.

By the way most stuff and feats working for dispel magic, work with dispeling attacks. The ability is a very good way of removing buffs and procs often, I use it all the time on core difficulty. Although it's true that in earlier versions, the ability was bugged and did not add character level to the rolls, so it never landed. But it's been patched since and works fine now.

[Brother Santodes]

it was scaling with heighten increased caster level and addition of display feats changed how it works now in the back you could get it higher. you could easily reach a base line of 36 in the past.

looks like they nerfed display into the abyss. at least greater display is still displaying multiply "buffs"

[IlluminaZero]

Rogue is also the only way you can dual wield finesse weapons while using your Dex modifier for damage. All of the "Grace" abilities require either Single Weapon or Single Weapon + Buckler.

You could also do this with the mythic feat (Weapon Finesse) however if you intend to specialize in a single weapon (like Kukris for the crit range...) then you can get this benefit earlier and while saving a mythic feat.

This only requires a Level 3 Dip into Rogue tho... So I tend to think of Rogue as a Dip class overall. Although I like using Woljif as a pure Eldritch Scoundrel. The loss of sneak attack dice is misleading due to the lv 2 spell "Sense Vitals" basically compensating for that.

[Razer]

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

Rogue is also the only way you can dual wield finesse weapons while using your Dex modifier for damage. All of the "Grace" abilities require either Single Weapon or Single Weapon + Buckler.

You could also do this with the mythic feat (Weapon Finesse) however if you intend to specialize in a single weapon (like Kukris for the crit range...) then you can get this benefit earlier and while saving a crit feat.

This only requires a Level 3 Dip into Rogue tho... So I tend to think of Rogue as a Dip class overall. Although I like using Woljif as a pure Eldritch Scoundrel. The loss of sneak attack dice is misleading due to the lv 2 spell "Sense Vitals" basically compensating for that.

Woljif is a prime candidate for Vivisectionist. Which is now even more powerful due to Master Shapeshifter working on aspect spells. So you can give +4 to the physical stats to your entire party. That's more valuable than an average of 15 damage the sense vitals is going to give. I personally respec Woljif to Sylvan Trickster 8 / vivisectionist 12 or lower depending on what I need. So he can fulfil both buffing and debuffing roles and you don't need to bring Camellia or Ember.

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

Rogue is also the only way you can dual wield finesse weapons while using your Dex modifier for damage. All of the "Grace" abilities require either Single Weapon or Single Weapon + Buckler.

You could also do this with the mythic feat (Weapon Finesse) however if you intend to specialize in a single weapon (like Kukris for the crit range...) then you can get this benefit earlier and while saving a crit feat.

This only requires a Level 3 Dip into Rogue tho... So I tend to think of Rogue as a Dip class overall. Although I like using Woljif as a pure Eldritch Scoundrel. The loss of sneak attack dice is misleading due to the lv 2 spell "Sense Vitals" basically compensating for that.

Woljif is a prime candidate for Vivisectionist. Which is now even more powerful due to Master Shapeshifter working on aspect spells. So you can give +4 to the physical stats to your entire party. That's more valuable than an average of 15 damage the sense vitals is going to give. I personally respec Woljif to Sylvan Trickster 8 / vivisectionist 12 or lower depending on what I need. So he can fulfil both buffing and debuffing roles and you don't need to bring Camellia or Ember.

I always like making him a sword saint. Hitting an opponent's touch ac with a full rounds of attacks for offense, + intel bonus to intiative to go first, + intel bonus to AC for "you can't touch this", +int bonus to attack for the round for "I am gonna hit this"

[IlluminaZero]

Yeah up until I hit the level up button I was seriously thinking of going Arcane Rider for Dimension Strike + Full mount scaling.

In actual play unlocking caster levels earlier and with higher duration is really nice. Particularly for haste. While I like to play with theorycraft multiclass builds I tend to reserve it for Martials in actual play.

I also think part of the reason for the Vivisectionist hype is simply that most don't realize that Eldritch Scoundrel doesn't really lose backstab damage thanks to Sense Vitals. Give Woljif "Sorcerous Reflexes" and you can even cast it as a swift action for the significant fights.