Can we get a full respec for companions

[Schloopy McPaddywagon]

All mods for this suck. I'm not saying change racial/backgrounds or even stats, just classes. I can wheel and deal with non optimal builds but there are so many archetypes to be locked in with either a party with a personality or an interesting gameplay party.

[Kinezu]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by Kinezu:

Fair, but does, for example, Daeran need to be a level 4 Oracle? Why not lv 1 or even 2, just having 4 levels locks you out of so many possibilities.
Same with most of them, Woljif could easily be lv 1, so would Sosiel and Nenio.
I'll grant you Regill, he doesn't cheat, also Arue and Greybor should be a decently high level

pretty sure Daeran minimum level is 3.... same with all the other first act characters you can pick up....

also story wise.... it makes sense to me....

I mean the basic concept of levels as far as the story goes.... is that normal people range from like level 1 to level 5....

and when you pick up Seelah, Camellia... and either Lann or Wenduag... their at a much lower level of 1 to start off with.... it makes sense since Seelah openly admits she is a new paladin and used to be a normal thief.... Cam was part of nobility and is a half elf so not much experience either.... and Lann and Wenduag didnt get much experience underground afterall...

when you end up recruiting Nenio, Ember, Daeran, Ulbrig, and Woljiff.... their starting level is 3... which story wise they are more "dedicated" to their fields than the ones you picked up at the beginning.... Nenio is... well Nenio.... Daeran has been an oracle since a child.... Ulbrig was a ruler of his people a long time ago.... and Woljiff was raised as a thief.... and Ember is like over 100 years old as a stigmatized witch.... all of which have much more experience in their classes than the ones you pick up in the caves at the beginning...

even Sosiel received a lot of training early on.... he mentions how his mother had to make him wash his hands when they were blessed or something... so he was very young when he was gifted with the goddess blessing.... and he underwent training and all to be able to join the front lines of the war.... it makes sense his level would be higher than the characters you pick up in Act 1...... even though he might be green when it comes to combat.... his training though up to that point pretty much was like him getting a degree in his class kinda way....

which Regill also starts off at level 6 as a minimum too.... in comparison I see both Regill and Sosiel as kinda being.... equal a bit in terms of training and reaching their points.... I mean Regill training was a lot more brutal and all of course.... but I mean thats the hellknights way of doing things.... Sosiel way was through the church of Shelyn with how they do things.... basically both were trained for war specifically.... none of the characters you pick up in Act 1 had that much dedication in training for war...

Except Seelah openly talks about the adventures she's had, and they didn't get her to lv 2? You could even argue Camellia could get enough exp from murdering. And how do you justify Daeran being lv 3, sure he was abducted, but doubtful he was ever in a fight.

Seelah and Cam are lv 1 for gameplay purposes, because they're the first companions. Same for Regill, lv 6 is the earliest you can get a level in Hellknight.

I just think the rest of them having set levels is unnecessary and limiting, especially in a game whose selling point is buildcrafting. I'm sure most people wouldn't make a fuss if you could respec companions from lv 1.
This gets even worse when you do 3+ playthroughs, unless you're metagaming unfair you don't want to use mercs, you're forced to use the same classes over and over.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by Belegc:

I can understand why people think its wrong to respec but I cannot understand actively objecting to it - if anyone doesn't want to fully respec companions, then don't.

It´s not that the devs will add any of that when there are unfixed bugs in the game, and lacking QoL features. So it´s just talk anyway - and everyone is free to use any mods, or respec the heck out of anybody, no matter what the people say.

But if full respec, one should also be able to change the background pictures. Imho it´s off if the background picture shows a sneaky archer, while it´s respecced to a melee warrior or mage.

I personally just think - if it´s about feature talk - respec has a super low priority compared to other issues with the game. Let´s have automated buffing, let´s have more automated combat, let´s have more configuration options about the UI, let´s fix the bugs, at least those which are always in the face or break feats / classes / abilities. Do some different balancing for core and below. Get rid of the problems in turn based mode. Don´t let the enemies focus on the mc. Give a hint about "optional encounters", etc. And when that´s done one could do flavor stuff - while as the other guy said, certain decisions would either break certain quests, or they wouldn´t make sense any more. And some respec function would not only about people, who play the game for the 174th time, but also for new players, who watch a video, how to spec char X "the best", while it isn´t needed at all, when You don´t play the highest difficulty. Even more so, when there are mercenaries, which feel bland - i see that, but those can be specced into anything, with any class, race, and any alignment.

[Mindgames]

At the end of the day it's a video game. I appreciate the companion's setup and even used their default builds in my first run while learning the system and it helped me.

But it's frustrating being locked to a certain leveling path in subsequent playthroughs and just miss all the party banter and reactions to your choices during adventures, which mercenaries completely lack.

It would be of no big importance if Sosiel kept his cleric dialogue and setup even if I respecced him as a Fighter or whatever for gameplay purposes.

And it's something easily done with mods so in my ignorance I do not think it'd break how the game functions.

[Belegc]

Originally posted by Triple G:

Originally posted by Belegc:

I can understand why people think its wrong to respec but I cannot understand actively objecting to it - if anyone doesn't want to fully respec companions, then don't.

It´s not that the devs will add any of that when there are unfixed bugs in the game, and lacking QoL features. So it´s just talk anyway - and everyone is free to use any mods, or respec the heck out of anybody, no matter what the people say.

But if full respec, one should also be able to change the background pictures. Imho it´s off if the background picture shows a sneaky archer, while it´s respecced to a melee warrior or mage.

I personally just think - if it´s about feature talk - respec has a super low priority compared to other issues with the game. Let´s have automated buffing, let´s have more automated combat, let´s have more configuration options about the UI, let´s fix the bugs, at least those which are always in the face or break feats / classes / abilities. Do some different balancing for core and below. Get rid of the problems in turn based mode. Don´t let the enemies focus on the mc. Give a hint about "optional encounters", etc. And when that´s done one could do flavor stuff - while as the other guy said, certain decisions would either break certain quests, or they wouldn´t make sense any more. And some respec function would not only about people, who play the game for the 174th time, but also for new players, who watch a video, how to spec char X "the best", while it isn´t needed at all, when You don´t play the highest difficulty. Even more so, when there are mercenaries, which feel bland - i see that, but those can be specced into anything, with any class, race, and any alignment.

While I understand and respect your opinion, I believe you are simply making too many assumptions without any basis.
adding new features is separated from bugfixes and sometimes even is being worked on by completely different teams. the goal of this entire thread and my responses to it is to bring it to the attention of Owlcat and perhaps they will listen. they have done so many times in the past (including the very recent adding Chaotic option to Drunken Master).

without knowing the exact code, it seems to me that implementing a "level 1 Respec" should be fairly simple. its not adding new features. there is a mod that does exactly that and it was created by a private person. its not adding anything new (like UI features) but removing a limitation.

I don't understand the entire "you don't need" argument - of course you don't need, but we would like to have more options. you also don't need most of your companions or companions at all, but they are already implemented. why not allowing us to build them the way we want? especially in a game where its core selling point is the incredible depth and complexity of the system.

Again, no one wants to force it on you, but give you the option. you don't like it for any reason? don't use it. People like to play the game in different ways, allow them to do so. every way is good and correct as long you enjoy it. I personally dislike most (if not all) of the companion builds and think my playthrough will benefit from respeccing them. I am enjoying building characters and trying to fit them to the companion's background, general story and so on while making them useful to my party.

Some of the companion's backgrounds and builds simply do not make any sense. why Daeran is an oracle? Arushalae a (homebrewed) Charisma-based ranger? Camellia a spirit-hunter Shaman buckler-wielding tank? Greybor a dual-wielding (with two different weapon types) slayer? how this ties to his background and story? whatever Trever is supposed to be? Sosiel with 4 wasted feats on a feat-starved class? Lann with high stats and natural AC (mongrel) and waste him on a ranged monk that provides 0 support to the party (what he has to do with monks anyway?), Ember having the only witch type that cannot multiclass to winter witch (a prestige class built for witches)? why spend resources on creating companions and give them such builds?

[rubyismycat]

I do understand Owlcat wanted to make the game easy for dum dums and so gave them an entire party of stupidly op henchmen with very strong builds but that sort of ruins the point of a role playing game yes the characters are well written the voice acting is good but i just dont want to play someone elses story i want to play my own

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by rubyismycat:

I do understand Owlcat wanted to make the game easy for dum dums and so gave them an entire party of stupidly op henchmen with very strong builds but that sort of ruins the point of a role playing game yes the characters are well written the voice acting is good but i just dont want to play someone elses story i want to play my own

Not quite sure I agree. You do play your own character's story. Your companions are the people you interact with. Those interactions change based on your choices. I'd probably also argue they're not very strong OP builds. But they are serviceable for Normal difficulties.

But if you don't want them around, that's what the Merc option is for. The hiring cost is a bit much for early game though. I try to avoid doing more than 2 merc hires. But I do make it a rule to hire at least 1 to mix things up a bit.

[Schlumpsha]

I wouldn't have minded if WotR did something similar to PoE2 with its system of alternate companion class options. That was pretty awesome back then. And allowed for more flexible build synergy among the party. WotR has more than enough options to feasible pull that off as well, without breaking the character's overall theme.

Like, Regill: either he could be the current Armiger+Hellknight or, say, an Armored Battlemage+Hellknight Signifer. Depending on the player's input. In either case Regill would still be a Hellknight through and through. I can see the appeal of that freedom of choice.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Soul:

never gonna happen....

the characters you pick up in the storyline are built the way they are as part of their story and backgrounds.... allowing the player to change it will break the story....

Allowing players to select any class level up options they want also breaks the story and they do that. If it was entirely story focused, you'd not be allowed to edit your NPC allies even slightly, since they are their own people and would make their own choices.

So I think disallowing the full respect is weird. I would be fine if they required story difficulty for a full respect. That seems like a reasonable compromise.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Kinezu:

Originally posted by Soul:

pretty sure Daeran minimum level is 3.... same with all the other first act characters you can pick up....

also story wise.... it makes sense to me....

I mean the basic concept of levels as far as the story goes.... is that normal people range from like level 1 to level 5....

and when you pick up Seelah, Camellia... and either Lann or Wenduag... their at a much lower level of 1 to start off with.... it makes sense since Seelah openly admits she is a new paladin and used to be a normal thief.... Cam was part of nobility and is a half elf so not much experience either.... and Lann and Wenduag didnt get much experience underground afterall...

when you end up recruiting Nenio, Ember, Daeran, Ulbrig, and Woljiff.... their starting level is 3... which story wise they are more "dedicated" to their fields than the ones you picked up at the beginning.... Nenio is... well Nenio.... Daeran has been an oracle since a child.... Ulbrig was a ruler of his people a long time ago.... and Woljiff was raised as a thief.... and Ember is like over 100 years old as a stigmatized witch.... all of which have much more experience in their classes than the ones you pick up in the caves at the beginning...

even Sosiel received a lot of training early on.... he mentions how his mother had to make him wash his hands when they were blessed or something... so he was very young when he was gifted with the goddess blessing.... and he underwent training and all to be able to join the front lines of the war.... it makes sense his level would be higher than the characters you pick up in Act 1...... even though he might be green when it comes to combat.... his training though up to that point pretty much was like him getting a degree in his class kinda way....

which Regill also starts off at level 6 as a minimum too.... in comparison I see both Regill and Sosiel as kinda being.... equal a bit in terms of training and reaching their points.... I mean Regill training was a lot more brutal and all of course.... but I mean thats the hellknights way of doing things.... Sosiel way was through the church of Shelyn with how they do things.... basically both were trained for war specifically.... none of the characters you pick up in Act 1 had that much dedication in training for war...

Except Seelah openly talks about the adventures she's had, and they didn't get her to lv 2? You could even argue Camellia could get enough exp from murdering. And how do you justify Daeran being lv 3, sure he was abducted, but doubtful he was ever in a fight.

Seelah and Cam are lv 1 for gameplay purposes, because they're the first companions. Same for Regill, lv 6 is the earliest you can get a level in Hellknight.

I just think the rest of them having set levels is unnecessary and limiting, especially in a game whose selling point is buildcrafting. I'm sure most people wouldn't make a fuss if you could respec companions from lv 1.
This gets even worse when you do 3+ playthroughs, unless you're metagaming unfair you don't want to use mercs, you're forced to use the same classes over and over.

I know what your saying.... but its one of those things like the way the leveling sytem actually works is supposed to be a "rare" kinda thing to reach higher levels.... like we as players see level 20 as the "cap"....

but in the world setting its like.... I dont have to source to prove it... just vague memory I recall reading about.... but just for NPC's to reach level 6 was a rare thing... like it takes a great deal to reach those levels..... in the case of Regil and Sosiel I mentioned how they trained for years to reach level 6.... but your party that you pick up in Act 1 typically cant reach level 6 till AFTER the wardstone event when you become mythic hero's... so story wise the mythic hero gifted to you and your companions is pretty much "breaking" your limits allowing you to grow more as heroes...

like I dont remember the exact levels... but basically levels 1 through 20 mean in game mean something like... levels 1-5 your average.... levels 6-10 your a hero pretty much.... levels 11-15 you are becoming a legendary hero.... and levels 16-20 your reaching like demigod levels or something....

also as far as age goes.... thats not a factor in all this really.... I mean look at Ember being over 100 years old and she joins your party at level 3.... queen Galfrey is level 15 and is around same age as Ember.... but she's higher level than Aru when you first pick her up who is MUCH older than both queen and Ember....

also for the companions you pick up in the cave... yeah I know gameplay wise they are low level to match you... but their backgrounds and personality kinda match this too....

I mean Cam says she was tutored on her class.... and so she doesnt have much experience... given her nature i'd imagine she didnt pay that much attention outside what she thought she needed and ignored the ramblings of stuff she thought irrelevant....

as for Seelah... she's a paladin and went on some adventures sure.... but.... first thing that happens when you meet her and she joins you.... she follows you around instead of taking the lead herself.... even Irabeth scolds her for being undisciplined when it comes to drinking and her carefree attitude... she may be a paladin but she dont really put the effort into being all paladin like... even Daeran notices her attitude and calls her out on it....

as for Wenduag and Lann.... both are kinda self taught in their fields.... Wenduag a warrior..... and Lann as a zen archer.... both have their motivations for choosing those classes.... I dont play with Wenduag really just know she wants strength as her motivation.... as for Lann though he is dedicated to zen archery specifically cause he fears the mongrel curse... mentioning how it can sneak up on you in say combat and you can no longer see very well... him practicing meditation and zen archery on his own means even if his eyesight fails him he can always rely on his bow.... but both of them were mostly just hunting for food... not really getting into serious combat like what you went through in the maze....

for the other NPC's you pick up outside the caves though they have more experience in their fields.... like Daeran.... I mean one of the NPC's even makes comments on how great of an Oracle he is... plus he had a tutor when he was a child to teach him... a high quality one.... plus he's an Aasimar.... Azata touched at that.... so a naturally gifted individual...

I could go on with the others... but I think there is a clear difference between the ones you pick up in the prologue vs the ones you pick up later on in their respective classes and how they fit into the story... like im not saying SPECIFICALLY why their levels should be the number they are... just that it feels like there SHOULD be a level difference between the ones in the caves vs the ones you pick up later on.... like if they made the ones in the cave at level 3.... that the ones you pick up in Act 1 should be higher level than them still...

[Abacus]

Even if it's not the classes, just the archtype.

This game is just so flawed on many levels, I keep pushing and pushing. Just amazed around every corner is a convoluted hassle.

This is just one example of the ideas that work against the game. The fact buying custom characters is not only at a scaled cost (was free in Kingmaker iirc.), it's scaled to your level...why?

Such a good game, that sucks so bad.

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by Abacus:

This is just one example of the ideas that work against the game. The fact buying custom characters is not only at a scaled cost (was free in Kingmaker iirc.), it's scaled to your level...why?

It was also scaled pricing to your level in Kingmaker.

[mbradtke]

they have already said no to this several times, it won't happen but you can use mods which do the same

[Triple G]

Originally posted by Belegc:

I don't understand the entire "you don't need" argument

I´m unsure where i have said it.

All i said was that i think that there are more important issues, even more so when there are mercenaries. Imho they could rather add some packages for those to give them some personalities You can choose from. Doesn´t need to be generic personal quests, but like certain personality voice lines, or that they have some background as well - and would interact with each other. Which is probably a main reason people rather demand a respec for the unique companions. As the mercenaries are like the people You can hire and tailor to fit Your ideas - while the unique companions - are unique, while they still can take another path which can partly be changed, but with a certain base idea in mind, as NPCs are people too. And also: like You said there´s an easy mod to enable a full respec on companions.

[ThreeLeggedCow]

Originally posted by drchaos:

its a pity there are some characters i will never touch outside their special quests cause i cant see a way to possible fit them into any proper party...

Either that or they require so much micromanagement they take over the role of main character with how much handholding you have to do to have them be useful in any way.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by ThreeLeggedCow:

Either that or they require so much micromanagement they take over the role of main character with how much handholding you have to do to have them be useful in any way.

People like melee chars or archers don´t require much micro - and somehow any fight will be over after 2 rounds anyways, so You only use spells for special encounters as You can´t automate them if it´s not about cantrips. The handholding is the buffs of course, but that´s true for any character, or they won´t be able to hit the optional encounters and bosses - while they get one shot by anybody if they roll a number higher than 1.

But one thing is a question of the general game design and balancing, and the second is a question of QoL. If You want to solve these problems with a companion respec - it means that You don´t care about the design, the balancing, and the QoL, as You rather prefer it that the devs enable You to use a cheap workaround for it, so they don´t need to put effort and thought in the game.

Also - but that´s only my opinion - it doesn´t need to be that every single character out of 6 in a party, is able to dominate the game alone, as it defeats the point to have a party to begin with. And imho this is the part which the devs messed up. Because it´s like if one is able to survive an encounter - it also means one could solo them, but if one can´t - it means one gets wiped completely. There are no close fights in the game. Either You dominate, or the enemy dominates. Hence these 2 round fights. Perhaps there are 3-4 exceptions in the 2.5 trillion fights You have in the game, as any map is cluttered with encounters. And after You fought 2 hours straight - You can read dialogue for 2h straight, as everyone tells You their life story, when You ask a simple question...