Alternate Lich Ending?

[👁]

The original Lich ending was really disappointing to me because, I had been playing a Neutral Lich for the entire game, then in the final speech my character basically wages war on the living or shirks her duty, and there's no middle ground, the game doesn't account for the possibility that you could even want to hold onto the kingdom unless you also want to DESTROY THE LIVING.

There are other lich kingdoms where the living and dead co-exist, and the game even allows you to recruit a guy to help create a kingdom where the living and dead co-exist in peace, passing laws to that effect, but then it fails to account for the possibility in that speech.

It really completely broke character from how I had been playing until that point, the undead had been a bulwark against the damned, with a Lich Queen ruling over an undead kingdom where the living and the dead crossed paths and traded in forbidden magics and secrets.

It doesn't even make sense for a lich to want to exterminate all life, what would they even get out of it? It's a really dumb undead cliche when you think about it, a goal only suitable for the mindless dead lashing out blindly on instinct, or for those rare philosophical types who see life as an abomination.

Even on the literal Lich World of Eox there is a habitat set aside to act like a zoo or a nature preserve for the living.

So... Does the New DLC provide an Alternate Ending for the Lich?

[Schlumpsha]

No.

[👁]

Originally posted by Schlumpsha:

No.

That's sad, I thought with the whole Dance of Masks DLC maybe the Crusader Lich wouldn't declare a mission to exterminate all the living before a mindless army of zombies.

That was so utterly disappointing.

[Riftweaver]

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need. thats exactly the way a lich would be if it access to the levels of power they were offered here. that would be like trying to play an evil angel, or a lawful good swarm.

plus im not sure why you thought this flavor/fun/kissing mod would change the endings

[Takkik]

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need.

NEUTRAL. Big problem I have with this game, every path are too extreme/embody their alignement archetype. You miss a more hybrid approach of necessary evil : not all evil people want to destroy the world, some are just selfish.
Idem for lawful, chaotic, good etc... I would love playing a trickter run, but it feel too much chaotic, I don't align with all the choices.

[Shadow]

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need

He didn't say they would. This isn't an EA game where morality is a binary choice between helping a kitten out of a tree or setting the tree on fire.

He's simply asking why a neutral lich would go out of his way to wage war on all living things when he has no real motivation to do so. Even an evil lich wouldn't waste his time doing that just to be evil for evil sake.

[👁]

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.

There are different kinds of evil.
Also there's evil and then there's stupid.
Waging a war to exterminate all the living is stupid.

Liches tend to be evil because the type of people who seek to become a lich and what's required to become a lich typically requires an evil bent to start with, then because liches lose their ability to feel pity or compassion and become distanced from humanity it's easier for them to commit evil deeds in the pursuit of their goals.

But liches aren't all always fully evil just as vampires aren't all always fully evil. There are neutral liches that more or less mind their own business. There are liches with purposes they took on before they became undead.

Also Owlcat had done a really good job being nuanced with it until that point, you're ALLOWED TO ROLE PLAY a more nuanced kind of lich, then suddenly out of nowhere they have you give a speech where they just erase all that, like they defaulted back to some banal and lazy stereotyped cliche of Undead = Evil and evil in the most asinine ways.

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need.

Well like I said I was role playing a NEUTRAL Lich.

But that's also just down to a lack of imagination on your part. A strong willed crusader becoming a lich specifically to protect the world from the damned would carry that purpose into their lichedom. They'd lose their humanity, but they wouldn't become an automatic enemy of humanity.

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

thats exactly the way a lich would be if it access to the levels of power they were offered here

No because not all liches are the same, and again, exterminating all life isn't even an intelligent goal that should make sense for most of them.

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

plus im not sure why you thought this flavor/fun/kissing mod would change the endings

Well the Lich is basically just platonic with all their companions, I figured maybe she'd want to go pilfer the library and dabble in some intrigue, since intellectual excitement is about the only kind of excitement she can feel.

[Shadow]

Originally posted by Takkik:

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need.

NEUTRAL. Big problem I have with this game, every path are too extreme/embody their alignement archetype. You miss a more hybrid approach of necessary evil : not all evil people want to destroy the world, some are just selfish.
Idem for lawful, chaotic, good etc... I would love playing a trickter run, but it feel too much chaotic, I don't align with all the choices.

I tend to agree. One thing I never really cared for is how much the mythic paths railroad you into specific alignments. I mean, I do get it. Someone on an Angel path probably wouldn't be too keen on chaotic evil stuff, Tricksters are pretty chaotic by nature, etc. etc. But there's a reason the phrase "lawful stupid" is a thing.

[Schlumpsha]

Demon actually has both kinds. You can do things smart, or bash in more heads for the sake of bashing in heads.

[Wayz]

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need. thats exactly the way a lich would be if it access to the levels of power they were offered here. that would be like trying to play an evil angel, or a lawful good swarm.

plus im not sure why you thought this flavor/fun/kissing mod would change the endings

I lich is undead but it doesn't have to be obsessed with wiping out all life. Could just be ya typical adsorbed in study of magic obsessed type sorcerer that found a way to cheat death, and sleep. 24/7 magic a go go!

[elbentzo]

Originally posted by Takkik:

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need.

NEUTRAL. Big problem I have with this game, every path are too extreme/embody their alignement archetype. You miss a more hybrid approach of necessary evil : not all evil people want to destroy the world, some are just selfish.
Idem for lawful, chaotic, good etc... I would love playing a trickter run, but it feel too much chaotic, I don't align with all the choices.

Originally posted by Shadow:

Originally posted by Takkik:

NEUTRAL. Big problem I have with this game, every path are too extreme/embody their alignement archetype. You miss a more hybrid approach of necessary evil : not all evil people want to destroy the world, some are just selfish.
Idem for lawful, chaotic, good etc... I would love playing a trickter run, but it feel too much chaotic, I don't align with all the choices.

I tend to agree. One thing I never really cared for is how much the mythic paths railroad you into specific alignments. I mean, I do get it. Someone on an Angel path probably wouldn't be too keen on chaotic evil stuff, Tricksters are pretty chaotic by nature, etc. etc. But there's a reason the phrase "lawful stupid" is a thing.

I feel like a lot of people don't really get the point of the mythic path narrative, and in some sense, missed the point of the game.
The entire point is that the commander is imbued with raw demonic energy from the worldwound, and that energy takes shape depending on their most inner desires and tendencies. In other words, a commander that goes down the trickster mythic path is a commander whose very nature is wild and chaotic, thus making the demonic energy manifest that way. Saying ``I want to be a trickster but not chaotic" is like saying ``I want to play someone whose nature is chaos but they're not really chaotic". If you're not really chaotic in nature, you'd either have your energy manifest differently, or start to manifest Trickster but your inner desires and soul would be strong and non-chaotic enough to reject it.

That's also the reason your tendencies get more extreme as the game goes on. Because the demonic worldwound energies consume more and more of your inner self and you become more and more a manifestation of those energies. So at MR 3 you might still be in control of yourself (even if your inner self is chaotic enough to make the energy manifest as a Trickster) but by MR 10 you're basically 100% chaotic energy.

So yeah, by the end of the game, you're 100% evil lich. Just because you managed to remain neutral earlier doesn't mean that as your soul deteriorates into deathly manifestation you would remain neutral. And liches in PF are evil creatures.

The question whether or not an evil lich would want to kill all living beings is a different subject altogether, and I agree that it could potentially be very stupid and not a real goal for an evil lich. But on the other hand, this happens literally as the game is ending so we don't really get an explanation as to why or how you plan on doing this, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's like a teaser. Even if it doesn't necessarily makes sense, it's fine, because it still could be the story in it's entirety does.

[👁]

Originally posted by elbentzo:

Originally posted by Takkik:

NEUTRAL. Big problem I have with this game, every path are too extreme/embody their alignement archetype. You miss a more hybrid approach of necessary evil : not all evil people want to destroy the world, some are just selfish.
Idem for lawful, chaotic, good etc... I would love playing a trickter run, but it feel too much chaotic, I don't align with all the choices.

Originally posted by Shadow:

I tend to agree. One thing I never really cared for is how much the mythic paths railroad you into specific alignments. I mean, I do get it. Someone on an Angel path probably wouldn't be too keen on chaotic evil stuff, Tricksters are pretty chaotic by nature, etc. etc. But there's a reason the phrase "lawful stupid" is a thing.

I feel like a lot of people don't really get the point of the mythic path narrative, and in some sense, missed the point of the game.
The entire point is that the commander is imbued with raw demonic energy from the worldwound, and that energy takes shape depending on their most inner desires and tendencies. In other words, a commander that goes down the trickster mythic path is a commander whose very nature is wild and chaotic, thus making the demonic energy manifest that way. Saying ``I want to be a trickster but not chaotic" is like saying ``I want to play someone whose nature is chaos but they're not really chaotic". If you're not really chaotic in nature, you'd either have your energy manifest differently, or start to manifest Trickster but your inner desires and soul would be strong and non-chaotic enough to reject it.

That's also the reason your tendencies get more extreme as the game goes on. Because the demonic worldwound energies consume more and more of your inner self and you become more and more a manifestation of those energies. So at MR 3 you might still be in control of yourself (even if your inner self is chaotic enough to make the energy manifest as a Trickster) but by MR 10 you're basically 100% chaotic energy.

So yeah, by the end of the game, you're 100% evil lich.

And being evil means you have to be a stupid idiot who contradicts all of your previous choices and character development and embarks on a quest to annihilate all life for no gods damned reason.

It's bad writing, please stop trying to justify it. Owl Cat could change it by patching in three sentences to the dialogue tree.

[Shahadem]

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need. thats exactly the way a lich would be if it access to the levels of power they were offered here. that would be like trying to play an evil angel, or a lawful good swarm.

plus im not sure why you thought this flavor/fun/kissing mod would change the endings

Liches are not inherently evil and being turned into a lich would not magically make you evil.

Rather the normal path to becoming a lich involves doing things like sucking the souls out of babies which requires being evil.

But in this game you become a lich by drinking a potion.

You become an angel by choosing to take the FORM an angel.

You become a demon by choosing to take the FORM of a demon.

You don't take a form based on your innermost hidden subconcious desires. You take on a form because you choose to take on that form. It is very logical for a good aligned character to think they need to take on the FORM of a demon to kill demons.

There is an anime called Yu Yu Hakusho where the main antagonist of the Black Tournament arc is a human who chooses to be turned into a demon to punish himself for failing to protect his students from being killed by a demon and because he wants to have the power to keep that from ever happening again.

That character in his 50 years as a demon does not become more evil after being turned into a demon. If anything he becomes a better person for it. The choices he makes after were not choices he makes because he now has the body of a demon but because he had been driven to madness when he saw his students mangled bodies. Over time he eventually regains his mind and uses his last years to take down an organization of evil trillionaires from the inside.

This is his last scene in the anime when he goes to the very afterlife he selected for himself as one final punishment. Does this man seem evil to you?

https://youtu.be/XlKa33Ty_1c?si=0UcIRaWKKl2u2dpP

I reiterate that this is a man who became a demon.

In Act 2 you meet Aru who is a good demon.

In Act 4 you meet several non evil demons.

In Act 5 you see demons CHOOSE to become good, including Noctila.

So no, being a demon is not synonymous with being evil according to this game.

And the worldwound doesn't corrupt one's soul but one's body. Those who are virtuous and powerful can resist it.

[elbentzo]

Originally posted by 👁:

Originally posted by elbentzo:

I feel like a lot of people don't really get the point of the mythic path narrative, and in some sense, missed the point of the game.
The entire point is that the commander is imbued with raw demonic energy from the worldwound, and that energy takes shape depending on their most inner desires and tendencies. In other words, a commander that goes down the trickster mythic path is a commander whose very nature is wild and chaotic, thus making the demonic energy manifest that way. Saying ``I want to be a trickster but not chaotic" is like saying ``I want to play someone whose nature is chaos but they're not really chaotic". If you're not really chaotic in nature, you'd either have your energy manifest differently, or start to manifest Trickster but your inner desires and soul would be strong and non-chaotic enough to reject it.

That's also the reason your tendencies get more extreme as the game goes on. Because the demonic worldwound energies consume more and more of your inner self and you become more and more a manifestation of those energies. So at MR 3 you might still be in control of yourself (even if your inner self is chaotic enough to make the energy manifest as a Trickster) but by MR 10 you're basically 100% chaotic energy.

So yeah, by the end of the game, you're 100% evil lich.

And being evil means you have to be a stupid idiot who contradicts all of your previous choices and character development and embarks on a quest to annihilate all life for no gods damned reason.

It's bad writing, please stop trying to justify it. Owl Cat could change it by patching in three sentences to the dialogue tree.

You completely ignored everything I said. I specifically said that being evil does *NOT* mean you have to start a war on all humans (although yes, by the end of the game you fall deeper and deeper into evil and that very well could mean going against choices you've made earlier in the game).
And you don't know it's for no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ reason because it's literally just one sentence and then the game ends. Maybe there is a reason? Maybe there's a plan? You're just butthurt that the game doesn't comply exactly to how you would've written it.

[elbentzo]

Originally posted by Shahadem:

Originally posted by Riftweaver:

im honestly curious how you think a lich would be anything but an evil playthrough.. i cant imagine them doing good choices, or helping people in need. thats exactly the way a lich would be if it access to the levels of power they were offered here. that would be like trying to play an evil angel, or a lawful good swarm.

plus im not sure why you thought this flavor/fun/kissing mod would change the endings

Liches are not inherently evil and being turned into a lich would not magically make you evil.

Rather the normal path to becoming a lich involves doing things like sucking the souls out of babies which requires being evil.

But in this game you become a lich by drinking a potion.

You become an angel by choosing to take the FORM an angel.

You become a demon by choosing to take the FORM of a demon.

You don't take a form based on your innermost hidden subconcious desires. You take on a form because you choose to take on that form. It is very logical for a good aligned character to think they need to take on the FORM of a demon to kill demons.

There is an anime called Yu Yu Hakusho where the main antagonist of the Black Tournament arc is a human who chooses to be turned into a demon to punish himself for failing to protect his students from being killed by a demon and because he wants to have the power to keep that from ever happening again.

That character in his 50 years as a demon does not become more evil after being turned into a demon. If anything he becomes a better person for it. The choices he makes after were not choices he makes because he now has the body of a demon but because he had been driven to madness when he saw his students mangled bodies. Over time he eventually regains his mind and uses his last years to take down an organization of evil trillionaires from the inside.

This is his last scene in the anime when he goes to the very afterlife he selected for himself as one final punishment. Does this man seem evil to you?

https://youtu.be/XlKa33Ty_1c?si=0UcIRaWKKl2u2dpP

I reiterate that this is a man who became a demon.

And the worldwound doesn't corrupt one's soul but one's body. Those who are virtuous and powerful can resist it.

Sorry but you completely missed the plot of this game. Just because the *player* chooses the mythic path of the commander doesn't mean the commander is the one making the choice. The player also chooses the race of the commander. Are you implying that we are to understand that the commander has made a choice to be born a human or an aasimar or a half-orc?
If you read the text and listen to the story you'll see that the commander does not choose his mythic path. The mythic path is chosen for the commander according to the nature of his soul (of course from a mechanical point of view, Owlcat let the player choose the mythic path, just like they let you choose a race or a class because they want the player to play the game they enjoy most).

If the commander doesn't truly want to be evil in their heart of hearts, then their power would've taken another form other than Lich, Demon, etc. And if they are conflicted, it would've taken that evil form but they could've resisted it in the beginning of act 5 and become a legend. When you make the choice of MR8 you're basically affirming that the commander's soul is truly a manifestation of good/evil/chaos/order etc.

Edit: also, not that it changes anything to my point, but your last sentence ``And the worldwound doesn't corrupt one's soul but one's body." is completely wrong and is negated in more or less every piece of lore released about the worldwound, whether it's from Paizo and the pen and paper game, or from Owlcats and the crpg. The worldwound curroption of the soul is the most dangerous thing about it. It's even featured in the game in multiple quests and character arcs, most prominently in the entire concept of Mongrels (decendents of humans who killed their Angel brother-in-arms and ate his corpse, not something sane people would do anywhere in Golarion except for the worldwound).

[👁]

Originally posted by elbentzo:

Originally posted by 👁:

And being evil means you have to be a stupid idiot who contradicts all of your previous choices and character development and embarks on a quest to annihilate all life for no gods damned reason.

It's bad writing, please stop trying to justify it. Owl Cat could change it by patching in three sentences to the dialogue tree.

You completely ignored everything I said. I specifically said that being evil does *NOT* mean you have to start a war on all humans (although yes, by the end of the game you fall deeper and deeper into evil and that very well could mean going against choices you've made earlier in the game).

Yet you are forced to by the devs because they didn't think to offer an alternative line of dialogue that accounts for even the possibility that you were role playing a more nuanced character.

Originally posted by elbentzo:

And you don't know it's for no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ reason because it's literally just one sentence and then the game ends

There isn't one because one is never established.

Originally posted by elbentzo:

Maybe there is a reason? Maybe there's a plan?

It's my ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ character. My character wouldn't wage a war to exterminate all life.

Besides that's an asinine goal for almost any villain to have.

Unless this is how your villain is written, then it's just bad writing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMZi217RUUY

Originally posted by elbentzo:

You're just butthurt that the game doesn't comply exactly to how you would've written it.

It's bad writing, and you're just being knee jerk defensive of it because you're White Knighting the devs.

But the devs should take criticism on this. They could change it by patching three sentences into the dialogue tree to account for more neutral or nuanced liches.