I'm kinda loss with Sorcerer

[Cemlat]

Hi guys, I like to play blaster sorcerer and looked up for build guides, there are lot till 1 year ago but most says cross blood sorcerer which apperently it got patched recently so they are not viable now. I start as overwhelming sorcerer but I can respec when I reach that point so can you guys give me some direction that would work right now? Like do I need multi class or just go this way or what?

[Soul]

pretty sure the ones complaining about sorcerer are just the ones focused purely on min / maxing..... like I never took the double draconic bloodline and was fine....

[Elizabello]

I m gonna just share all my thoughts on the matter. Please filter through:)

We are talking here about Ray caster. I really really dislike the name "blaster". Its unimmersive and pointless when we already have a way to describe the build - Ray caster. Also i dont find blasters cool - they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid.

Ray caster is ultra powerful and doesnt need min maxing at all. Min maxed ray caster is way more then Unfair can handle. Core difficulties and below just dont exist for ray caster. It already 1 shots all bosses on Unfair without trying.
When people make such builds it mean 19 times out of 20 - Scorching Ray and later Hellfire Ray spells.
- You need to hit your rays - therefore Dexterity is your primary stat.
- Enemies dont save vs rays, you just need to land them and bypass spell resistance
- Requires mythic feat - Ascendant element - usually Fire, since scorching and hellfire do fire damage. Hellfire does half fire, half unholy. Nothing is immune to unholy damage in the game.
- You can totally get away with having 15 Charisma or even less, provided you wear Cha boosting equipment, that is abundant in the game
- You need point blank shot and precise shot feats
- Early game you gonna struggle a bit, but starting level 7 you are already quite strong
- You dont need crossblooded or anything like that. A simple Ray caster(any class) is already so strong nothing in the game can handle it anyway. There is also an overabundance of fire dmg boosting items in the game
- You need metamagic - Bolster, Maximized, Empower, Quicken, which you pick through feats. Also pick "Favorite metamagic"mythic feat when you can, start with Bolster. I also like to pick Reach metamagic and favorite it as well. Remember you not only can combine metamagic - you also should!
- Scout for metamagic wands. You are interested in empower, quicken, maximize primarily

Good luck!

[hilburnashua]

I mostly agree with Elizabello but with a few exceptions. The ray caster is very strong but I would also have a few AoE spells for dealing with groups. Since Rays target touch AC you don't need to have your dex maxed out, frankly I would split it with 17/19 in your primary stat (Charisma) and a 16 in your Dex. Get some dex increasing gear and you are good. Your primary stat gives you extra castings per day depending on how high your stat is even if you don't care about DC because you are going pure ray and not AoEs.

You will want point blank shot and precise shot feats for using rays. You need spell penetration/greater spell penetration/ mythic spell penetration. You will want to focus on one elemental effect for mythic elemental affinity to bypass elemental resistance/immunity. Spell focus/greater spell focus/mythic spell focus is good to help you boost your ability to avoid enemies saving and taking less damage from the AoEs. Bolster and Empower to me are the most useful metamagics but with a ray caster it isn't unreasonable to also take Reach because your rays have a fairly limited range and the maps can be quite big later on. Mythic Favorite Metamagic is your friend for reducing the spell level of metamagically enhanced spell.

Most people will suggest going Dragon bloodline for that elemental type to get the +1 damage per die of damage. You used to be able to stack the dragon bloodlines for up to +3 damage per die but that got fixed. Taking a second bloodline in the Elemental can be good if you want to convert spells from one elemental type to your primary type (see the magic items in the next paragraph), so Crossblooded is still really good, just not the OP damage machine it was.

There are three magic items that add elemental damage spells to the spell list of spontaneous casters (sorcerer, oracle, etc). One is in act 2, a ring, and adds most of the fire spells including the really good ones (scorching ray, fireball, controlled fireball, hellfire ray, and firestorm). One is in act 3 and gives most of the level 3+ electricity spells and allows you to convert all other elemental damage to electricity. The third is availible in act 4 and gives most of the level 4+ cold based spellls.

Rods of Quickening, Reach, and Maximize I find to be a sorcerer's best friends. Quickening will let you cast an metamagically enhanced spell as a swift action. Reach will let you hit something further away then your ray can normally reach and Maximize I like more as a rod then a feat, but I know others will disagree.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

I m gonna just share all my thoughts on the matter. Please filter through:)

We are talking here about Ray caster. I really really dislike the name "blaster". Its unimmersive and pointless when we already have a way to describe the build - Ray caster. Also i dont find blasters cool - they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid.

Ray caster is ultra powerful and doesnt need min maxing at all. Min maxed ray caster is way more then Unfair can handle. Core difficulties and below just dont exist for ray caster. It already 1 shots all bosses on Unfair without trying.
When people make such builds it mean 19 times out of 20 - Scorching Ray and later Hellfire Ray spells.
- You need to hit your rays - therefore Dexterity is your primary stat.
- Enemies dont save vs rays, you just need to land them and bypass spell resistance
- Requires mythic feat - Ascendant element - usually Fire, since scorching and hellfire do fire damage. Hellfire does half fire, half unholy. Nothing is immune to unholy damage in the game.
- You can totally get away with having 15 Charisma or even less, provided you wear Cha boosting equipment, that is abundant in the game
- You need point blank shot and precise shot feats
- Early game you gonna struggle a bit, but starting level 7 you are already quite strong
- You dont need crossblooded or anything like that. A simple Ray caster(any class) is already so strong nothing in the game can handle it anyway. There is also an overabundance of fire dmg boosting items in the game
- You need metamagic - Bolster, Maximized, Empower, Quicken, which you pick through feats. Also pick "Favorite metamagic"mythic feat when you can, start with Bolster. I also like to pick Reach metamagic and favorite it as well. Remember you not only can combine metamagic - you also should!
- Scout for metamagic wands. You are interested in empower, quicken, maximize primarily

Good luck!

Ray casting and blasting are not synonymous. Blasting doesn't just include rays. It also includes AOEs.

DEX also is not the primary stat. Rays target touch AC, which is almost always significantly lower than regular AC, so max DEX isn't necessary. Casting stat should be the primary stat.

[Elizabello]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Elizabello:

I m gonna just share all my thoughts on the matter. Please filter through:)

We are talking here about Ray caster. I really really dislike the name "blaster". Its unimmersive and pointless when we already have a way to describe the build - Ray caster. Also i dont find blasters cool - they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid.

Ray caster is ultra powerful and doesnt need min maxing at all. Min maxed ray caster is way more then Unfair can handle. Core difficulties and below just dont exist for ray caster. It already 1 shots all bosses on Unfair without trying.
When people make such builds it mean 19 times out of 20 - Scorching Ray and later Hellfire Ray spells.
- You need to hit your rays - therefore Dexterity is your primary stat.
- Enemies dont save vs rays, you just need to land them and bypass spell resistance
- Requires mythic feat - Ascendant element - usually Fire, since scorching and hellfire do fire damage. Hellfire does half fire, half unholy. Nothing is immune to unholy damage in the game.
- You can totally get away with having 15 Charisma or even less, provided you wear Cha boosting equipment, that is abundant in the game
- You need point blank shot and precise shot feats
- Early game you gonna struggle a bit, but starting level 7 you are already quite strong
- You dont need crossblooded or anything like that. A simple Ray caster(any class) is already so strong nothing in the game can handle it anyway. There is also an overabundance of fire dmg boosting items in the game
- You need metamagic - Bolster, Maximized, Empower, Quicken, which you pick through feats. Also pick "Favorite metamagic"mythic feat when you can, start with Bolster. I also like to pick Reach metamagic and favorite it as well. Remember you not only can combine metamagic - you also should!
- Scout for metamagic wands. You are interested in empower, quicken, maximize primarily

Good luck!

Ray casting and blasting are not synonymous. Blasting doesn't just include rays. It also includes AOEs.

DEX also is not the primary stat. Rays target touch AC, which is almost always significantly lower than regular AC, so max DEX isn't necessary. Casting stat should be the primary stat.

Casting stat does next to nothing for your rays except give u a few more casts of which there are more then enough already, since all ur spell slots are filled with metamagiced scorching and hellfire rays.
Rays target touch AC which is significantly lower then regular AC - and what? Significantly lower doesnt mean you are landing your rays. Especially not on harder difficulties(Core+) where touch AC can easily be 38+ and higher starting the middle of act 3. Since its a ranged attack it benefits from dexterity. And your primary stats can be in the millions, it wont do anything for your rays.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

Originally posted by revan1229:

Ray casting and blasting are not synonymous. Blasting doesn't just include rays. It also includes AOEs.

DEX also is not the primary stat. Rays target touch AC, which is almost always significantly lower than regular AC, so max DEX isn't necessary. Casting stat should be the primary stat.

Casting stat does next to nothing for your rays except give u a few more casts of which there are more then enough already, since all ur spell slots are filled with metamagiced scorching and hellfire rays.
Rays target touch AC which is significantly lower then regular AC - and what? Significantly lower doesnt mean you are landing your rays. Especially not on harder difficulties(Core+) where touch AC can easily be 38+ and higher starting the middle of act 3. Since its a ranged attack it benefits from dexterity. And your primary stats can be in the millions, it wont do anything for your rays.

Casting stat also increases DC for utility spells in the early game (the hardest part and when your rays aren't online yet) and AOE damage spells in the mid to late game (again, blasting isn't just rays).

Yes, it does mean you are landing your rays with buffs (True Strike, Cat's Grace, Mark of Justice, etc.) and gear (Deadly Rays, Gloves of Arcane Eradication, Steady Finger, etc.). I play on Hard/Unfair. Max DEX isn't needed.

[Elizabello]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Elizabello:

Casting stat does next to nothing for your rays except give u a few more casts of which there are more then enough already, since all ur spell slots are filled with metamagiced scorching and hellfire rays.
Rays target touch AC which is significantly lower then regular AC - and what? Significantly lower doesnt mean you are landing your rays. Especially not on harder difficulties(Core+) where touch AC can easily be 38+ and higher starting the middle of act 3. Since its a ranged attack it benefits from dexterity. And your primary stats can be in the millions, it wont do anything for your rays.

Casting stat also increases DC for utility spells in the early game (the hardest part and when your rays aren't online yet) and AOE damage spells in the mid to late game (again, blasting isn't just rays).

Yes, it does mean you are landing your rays with buffs (True Strike, Cat's Grace, Mark of Justice, etc.) and gear (Deadly Rays, Steady Finger, etc.). I play on Hard/Unfair. Max DEX isn't needed.

Alright i got it that blasting isnt just rays. Still dislike the word. But since we are talking rays...
Cats grace gives 4 Dexterity, thats +2 to hit. Mark of justice requires a paladin on hand and its not really spammable. True strike only applies to the first ray and gets consumed - that wasnt like that when the game came out, but they finally fixed it. Deadly rays you find in act 5, which is obviously long way away.
Its basically like this. When you reach the end of act 3 you got
+6 from BaB
+3 from steady finger
+4 from gloves from arcane eradication
+1 from point blank shot
+4 from major heroism, assuming you arent neglecting the buffs
~5 from dex(if you started with 16 Dex and buffed with cats or belt)
0 from Charisma
Thats 23. You are not really landing anything reliably on Unfair with that starting end of act 3 and onward without having to use expensive buffs like guarded hearth or mark of justice, spamming touch of good every round etc.And if you neglect Dex it just gets worse from there.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

Originally posted by revan1229:

Casting stat also increases DC for utility spells in the early game (the hardest part and when your rays aren't online yet) and AOE damage spells in the mid to late game (again, blasting isn't just rays).

Yes, it does mean you are landing your rays with buffs (True Strike, Cat's Grace, Mark of Justice, etc.) and gear (Deadly Rays, Steady Finger, etc.). I play on Hard/Unfair. Max DEX isn't needed.

Alright i got it that blasting isnt just rays. Still dislike the word. But since we are talking rays...
Cats grace gives 4 Dexterity, thats +2 to hit. Mark of justice requires a paladin on hand and its not really spammable. True strike only applies to the first ray and gets consumed - that wasnt like that when the game came out, but they finally fixed it. Deadly rays you find in act 5, which is obviously long way away.
Its basically like this. When you reach the end of act 3 you got
+6 from BaB
+3 from steady finger
+4 from gloves from arcane eradication
+1 from point blank shot
+4 from major heroism, assuming you arent neglecting the buffs
~5 from dex(if you started with 16 Dex and buffed with cats or belt)
0 from Charisma
Thats 23. You are not really landing anything reliably on Unfair with that starting end of act 3 and onward without having to use expensive buffs like guarded hearth or mark of justice, spamming touch of good every round etc.And if you neglect Dex it just gets worse from there.

You're forgetting some things:
Ambrosial Attire of Arcane Annihilation (+4)
Bard Song with Mythic Inspiration (+4-5)
Debuffs, like Archon's Aura or Grappled condition from your CC caster (+2)
Haste (+1)
Divine Power from Loremaster (+3-4)
BFT gives extra DEX when using Cat's Grace (+1)
Bit of Luck from Sosiel with Domain Zealot (re-rolls on all rays - insanely good)
Inspiring Command from Sosiel (+2)
Weapon Focus: Ray (+1) and potentially GWF (another +1 from Loremaster) and Mythic WF (+2)

And so on.
The big bad boss of Act 3's touch AC is only 41. You will be landing those rays.
And I'm not saying dump DEX. I'm saying making it the primary stat isn't needed. Your casting stat being maxed will make a bigger difference for the first 2-3 acts.

[hilburnashua]

Besides. If you are playing on Unfair you better be optimizing to hell and back. The OP wasn't asking about building for Unfair, just how to make a sorcerer work better then what they are currently running. Which, since they didn't give us any actually stats, is a bit hard to guess at.

[Elizabello]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Elizabello:

Alright i got it that blasting isnt just rays. Still dislike the word. But since we are talking rays...
Cats grace gives 4 Dexterity, thats +2 to hit. Mark of justice requires a paladin on hand and its not really spammable. True strike only applies to the first ray and gets consumed - that wasnt like that when the game came out, but they finally fixed it. Deadly rays you find in act 5, which is obviously long way away.
Its basically like this. When you reach the end of act 3 you got
+6 from BaB
+3 from steady finger
+4 from gloves from arcane eradication
+1 from point blank shot
+4 from major heroism, assuming you arent neglecting the buffs
~5 from dex(if you started with 16 Dex and buffed with cats or belt)
0 from Charisma
Thats 23. You are not really landing anything reliably on Unfair with that starting end of act 3 and onward without having to use expensive buffs like guarded hearth or mark of justice, spamming touch of good every round etc.And if you neglect Dex it just gets worse from there.

You're forgetting some things:
Ambrosial Attire of Arcane Annihilation (+4)
Bard Song with Mythic Inspiration (+4-5)
Debuffs, like Archon's Aura or Grappled condition from your CC caster (+2)
Haste (+1)
Divine Power from Loremaster (+3-4)
BFT gives extra DEX when using Cat's Grace (+1)
Bit of Luck from Sosiel with Domain Zealot (re-rolls on all rays - insanely good)
Inspiring Command from Sosiel (+2)
Weapon Focus: Ray (+1) and potentially GWF (another +1 from Loremaster) and Mythic WF (+2)

And so on.
The big bad boss of Act 3's touch AC is only 41. You will be landing those rays.
And I'm not saying dump DEX. I'm saying making it the primary stat isn't needed. Your casting stat being maxed will make a bigger difference for the first 2-3 acts.

No question here, with all the buffs you have listed you will be definetely landing your rays but
Ambrosial Attire requires Arcane trickster mc, bard song a bard, Archon aura and grappling effects need to pass DC checks, brown fur transmuter and loremaster are all such niche choices made to support your ray caster. Or you can just focus on Dex and get up to +18 attack coming from dex alone.
True Strike exploit doesnt work anymore so that spell is useless now for rays.
Bit of Luck is really great but ray caster isnt the only one in the group doing damage who might want that. I strive to make every single group member pull their weight. If you pump Dex you really dont need to support him.
I do agree that earlier part of the game is hardest and higher DC for control spells help but there are other ways to deal with chapter 1. Rays come online for me in chapter 2. Starting lvl 7 basically.

Just fought Playful Darkness - it has 60 touch AC. But its an optional hard boss challenge so its a bad example.

[Elizabello]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Besides. If you are playing on Unfair you better be optimizing to hell and back. The OP wasn't asking about building for Unfair, just how to make a sorcerer work better then what they are currently running. Which, since they didn't give us any actually stats, is a bit hard to guess at.

Well as was pointed out to me blaster isnt just rays. I stand corrected. But if talking about
rays then new players tend to mess up buffing, miss important items that are either hidden behind perception checks or in some obscure merchants inventory. So better be safe then sorry. With high dex they dont need to worry about landing hits. And definetely dont need to min max sorcerer as its gonna be strong either way. Especially if they dont neglect metamagic. Which many ppl do.

[ptirodaktill]

After a few "balance" patch there is just no reason to play sorcerer or ray caster other that dip intro undead/serpentine bloodline for DC spells. Also crossblood is such a pain to start with and there is no feats to remove metamagic cast time penalty on spontaneous casters, so its just better to play a wizard instead and blast stuff with magus or something that actualy does dmg. Basicly sorc is useless for like half of the game and underperform for second half of the game .

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

Originally posted by revan1229:

You're forgetting some things:
Ambrosial Attire of Arcane Annihilation (+4)
Bard Song with Mythic Inspiration (+4-5)
Debuffs, like Archon's Aura or Grappled condition from your CC caster (+2)
Haste (+1)
Divine Power from Loremaster (+3-4)
BFT gives extra DEX when using Cat's Grace (+1)
Bit of Luck from Sosiel with Domain Zealot (re-rolls on all rays - insanely good)
Inspiring Command from Sosiel (+2)
Weapon Focus: Ray (+1) and potentially GWF (another +1 from Loremaster) and Mythic WF (+2)

And so on.
The big bad boss of Act 3's touch AC is only 41. You will be landing those rays.
And I'm not saying dump DEX. I'm saying making it the primary stat isn't needed. Your casting stat being maxed will make a bigger difference for the first 2-3 acts.

No question here, with all the buffs you have listed you will be definetely landing your rays but
Ambrosial Attire requires Arcane trickster mc, bard song a bard, Archon aura and grappling effects need to pass DC checks, brown fur transmuter and loremaster are all such niche choices made to support your ray caster. Or you can just focus on Dex and get up to +18 attack coming from dex alone.
True Strike exploit doesnt work anymore so that spell is useless now for rays.
Bit of Luck is really great but ray caster isnt the only one in the group doing damage who might want that. I strive to make every single group member pull their weight. If you pump Dex you really dont need to support him.
I do agree that earlier part of the game is hardest and higher DC for control spells help but there are other ways to deal with chapter 1. Rays come online for me in chapter 2. Starting lvl 7 basically.

Just fought Playful Darkness - it has 60 touch AC. But its an optional hard boss challenge so its a bad example.

-Ambrosial Attire does not require AT MC. You can get it through Treasure of Midnight Isles. Trickster is one of the best ray paths anyway, and on it, you can qualify for AT with no dips.
-Loremaster? Niche? Wut. Loremaster is optimal for ray casters for Divine Power and feats like Improved Critical, Improved Improved Critical, and GWF: Ray.
-Bit of Luck can be used as a swift action. Meaning Sosiel can do other things after using it. It's also not just for hit chance, but also crit chance. Inspiring Command affects the whole party. Who is not pulling their weight in this example?
-You could argue that Bards, BFT, etc. are situational, but I would argue that since MC is the most powerful character, you should be building around them and their strengths.
-You're also going to be getting Mythic bonuses to help your rays later on. Tricksters can get full BAB from Athletics 3, Azatas get Incredible Might that can be doubled with the Ring of Triumphant Advance, etc.
-Maxing DEX alone is not going to make your character self-sufficient. They will still need buffs. Starting with DEX of 20 vs DEX of like 15 is not going to make much of a difference once rays come online, whereas a casting stat of 20 vs 15 will make a huge difference in the hardest part of the game.

Playful Darkness isn't the boss of Act 3, so it wasn't what I was referring to. Darrazand is.

Rays at level 7? Build? And I look at opportunity cost. I'm doing a hybrid ray/DC caster now and I'm at Drezen. Hasted martials and pets with Crusader's Edge mop the floor with anything much better than a ray caster can at this point. Casters, however, can be buffing and shutting down whole mobs with Stinking Cloud or Winter's Grasp.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Besides. If you are playing on Unfair you better be optimizing to hell and back. The OP wasn't asking about building for Unfair, just how to make a sorcerer work better then what they are currently running. Which, since they didn't give us any actually stats, is a bit hard to guess at.

Well as was pointed out to me blaster isnt just rays. I stand corrected. But if talking about
rays then new players tend to mess up buffing, miss important items that are either hidden behind perception checks or in some obscure merchants inventory. So better be safe then sorry. With high dex they dont need to worry about landing hits. And definetely dont need to min max sorcerer as its gonna be strong either way. Especially if they dont neglect metamagic. Which many ppl do.

If player's don't know how to buff, ~5 more DEX isn't going to save them. Sorc def needs min-maxed on Unfair, like most classes, barring Sylan maybe if you primarily let your pet do the work.