One last request to the devs...

[Mirag3]

Can you please fix the bugs on Magic Deceiver... I just arrived at the Dance of Mask DLC and as a Magic inventor those items are so busted that its making the game complete joke, It feels like MD is so over the top good that all caster classes in the game have become completely useless, fix the class so the power level can be comparable to other casters....

[Triple G]

I mean it can hardly make "the game a joke" when "Dance of Masks" is basically near the end of the game, when You have not much more to do.

And it´s probably a choice to play magic deceiver to begin with.

Nonetheless it can´t ham to fix bugs. And while they´re at it they could "fix" certain other encounters, when they have 115 AC and a spell resistance of 50. They could as well say they have 3 trillion AC and it wouldn´t make a difference, but looks more funny. And they should do a disclaimer that the game is meant to play as magic user, as said encounters may have a touch AC of like 20. That would make the power level of martial fighters comparable to caster classes.

[Mirag3]

Originally posted by Triple G:

I mean it can hardly make "the game a joke" when "Dance of Masks" is basically near the end of the game, when You have not much more to do.

And it´s probably a choice to play magic deceiver to begin with.

Nonetheless it can´t ham to fix bugs. And while they´re at it they could "fix" certain other encounters, when they have 115 AC and a spell resistance of 50. They could as well say they have 3 trillion AC and it wouldn´t make a difference, but looks more funny. And they should do a disclaimer that the game is meant to play as magic user, as said encounters may have a touch AC of like 20. That would make the power level of martial fighters comparable to caster classes.

even before the event deskari didnt get to hit 1 time, every encounter, 1 aoe weird fight over, optional boss comes, 2 arcana theft - dead. Steam rolling the game in less than 50 hours... there is absolutely no reason why anyone should pick sorc/wiz/witch/druid/ over Magic Deceiver Magic Inventor.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by Mirag3:

even before the event deskari didnt get to hit 1 time, every encounter, 1 aoe weird fight over, optional boss comes, 2 arcana theft - dead. Steam rolling the game in less than 50 hours... there is absolutely no reason why anyone should pick sorc/wiz/witch/druid/ over Magic Deceiver Magic Inventor.

If anything fails it´s an RPG, not some how to be most OP simulator. Also some people might find it boring to go only with the strongest option. Even more so when it´s about bugs or exploits. Imho the challenge, and what makes it interesting, in such games is more to go through the game with non optimized builds. While this game makes it kinda hard to do so, with the bloated stats of anybody.

I mean even if they fix all the bugs it doesn´t change the thing that martial fighters can´t hold a candle to magic users. Speaking about comparable power level. Because one needs the buffs and debuffs, and certain encounters are impossible if You would only fight against the standard or flat footed AC - without certain buffs which raise Your AB, AC, or strength sky high. I don´t think one could play the game with 6 fighters, who have no point in using magic device. Perhaps on story mode. One could bypass certain things with certain dips to get more AC, so they theoretically survive longer, if we turn a blind eye to certain save rolls, and hope for the best that they roll many 20´s, but that´s about it. They would be unable to hit certain enemies reliably. One could very well play the game with 6 wizards, which can even be the better fighters or tanks thanks to all the buffs and spells.

[Razer]

What about the items is better for magic deceiver than other spell casters?

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Mirag3:

even before the event deskari didnt get to hit 1 time, every encounter, 1 aoe weird fight over, optional boss comes, 2 arcana theft - dead. Steam rolling the game in less than 50 hours... there is absolutely no reason why anyone should pick sorc/wiz/witch/druid/ over Magic Deceiver Magic Inventor.

Deskari's not a good benchmark. I've PKed him (and Baphomet) in one round. Wizard is still an extremely strong pick. Witch is more support and Druid is divine spells, so not quite the same thing. Sorc is....yes, Sorc is in an awkward place right now.

Originally posted by Razer:

What about the items is better for magic deceiver than other spell casters?

The game gives Magic Deceiver several items that increase the DC of their fused spells by 2, which they actually don't need at all. Ex. Dagger of the Betrayer: gives +2 to all spells and an additional +2 to fused spells. Jester Cap is another. 0 cares were given for balance with these. It is endgame, though.

That being said, it doesn't negate all of the other casters. Wizards got a shiny new staff from Dance of Masks (Sin Mage's Staff) and still have Divination school, Exploiter, and Scroll Savant (which I'm now realizing I underestimated, given the items that increase your CL when using scrolls). Plus, they can merge and benefit more from Demon's +7 INT bonus. BFT also still remains a top tier buffer, and Witch has hexes.

But Sorc has been almost entirely eclipsed by Magic Deceiver as an offensive caster - even the Sylvan Sorc, which was arguably the strongest. Magic Deceiver needed more time to cook to get the balance right, and on top of this, it is riddled with extremely favorable "bugs." This class did not need bard-like songs, domains, etc.

[Triple G]

I personally don´t like the spontaneous casters very much. The prepared ones always give You what You ask for - for the spontaneous it´s for me oftentimes that way, that i don´t have any casts left on a spell i would need or like, because i already casted another one on that level...

So i personally would always rate the spontaneous ones lower. Honorable exception would be the merged angel book, because You have the all in one buffs, which only need one cast. But in general i like to play the martial guys more, as one could have guessed. :o)

[Mirag3]

Originally posted by Razer:

What about the items is better for magic deceiver than other spell casters?

i have a ring that gives me 12 to mental stats as Magic Inventor a hat that gives me +4 dc and a dagger that gives me +8 dc, A neck that gives me +5 dc..... basically every single fight ends up with 1 spell i'm doing the secret of creation quest and it has been a breeze on Unfair, 1 huge aoe clears 1 room 0 resistance.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Mirag3:

Originally posted by Razer:

What about the items is better for magic deceiver than other spell casters?

i have a ring that gives me 12 to mental stats as Magic Inventor a hat that gives me +4 dc and a dagger that gives me +8 dc, A neck that gives me +5 dc..... basically every single fight ends up with 1 spell i'm doing the secret of creation quest and it has been a breeze on Unfair, 1 huge aoe clears 1 room 0 resistance.

Are you sure the DC items are increased by Magic Inventor? When I tried testing this, spell DC did not increase.

[Mirag3]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Mirag3:

i have a ring that gives me 12 to mental stats as Magic Inventor a hat that gives me +4 dc and a dagger that gives me +8 dc, A neck that gives me +5 dc..... basically every single fight ends up with 1 spell i'm doing the secret of creation quest and it has been a breeze on Unfair, 1 huge aoe clears 1 room 0 resistance.

Are you sure the DC items are increased by Magic Inventor? When I tried this testing this, spell DC did not increase.

the attribute increase works as intended but i dont know about the other modifiers (i dont know how to see lol) but so far i have hit every single spell that i used so im assuming its working lol.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Mirag3:

Originally posted by revan1229:

Are you sure the DC items are increased by Magic Inventor? When I tried this testing this, spell DC did not increase.

the attribute increase works as intended but i dont know about the other modifiers (i dont know how to see lol) but so far i have hit every single spell that i used so im assuming its working lol.

......You can check by hovering over the spell in your book to see the DC value. Or checking the DC that enemies save against in the combat log when you actually cast the spell. That's probably more accurate than assuming. lol I'm thinking they shouldn't get the increase because those aren't enhancement bonuses.

[Mirag3]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Mirag3:

the attribute increase works as intended but i dont know about the other modifiers (i dont know how to see lol) but so far i have hit every single spell that i used so im assuming its working lol.

......You can check by hovering over the spell in your book to see the DC value. Or checking the DC that enemies save against in the combat log when you actually cast the spell. That's probably more accurate than assuming. lol I'm thinking they shouldn't get the increase because those aren't enhancement bonuses.

yeah i dont think its calculated in the spell, 57 dc on illusion spell 61 dc on on enchantment spell and i have 2x Enchantment boosting skills cant really tell because if i miss a skill its always on the optional boss fights that are busted but still i have taken everyone out on unfair.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Razer:

What about the items is better for magic deceiver than other spell casters?

Ways of the Deceiver(Magic Inventor)
Fake Enhancement - At 2nd level, any enhancement bonus granted to the magic inventor by an item increases by 1. If it is an enhancement bonus to an ability score, it increases by 2 instead.

True Enhancement - At 20th level, the bonus granted by the magic inventor's fake enhancement ability increases to 2 (to 4 in the case of bonuses to ability scores).

This is specifically related to items and not the other things about them that can be broken.

[toynbee]

Is someone able to provide a solid numerical comparison between deceiver and other optimised spellcasters in terms of what dc they can reach at different stages of the game and how?

Anectodal evidence of people oneshotting enemies does not make for a good base to judge whether a class is OP.

Also, what "bugs" are we talking about with deceiver? The bypassing of immunities with merged spells?
Because if this gets removed, the class will plummet in effectiveness as almost all its dc spells are mind affecting in nature. You essentially would be forced to dip into sorcerer in this case, locking you from the lvl 20 capstone ability. Not sure if this would be a desirable solution.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by toynbee:

Is someone able to provide a solid numerical comparison between deceiver and other optimised spellcasters in terms of what dc they can reach at different stages of the game and how?

Anectodal evidence of people oneshotting enemies does not make for a good base to judge whether a class is OP.

I agree, and I can maybe try to run some calculations. INT casters should be relatively comparable because of achetype bonuses, Sin Mage's Staff, and access to Persistent Metamagic. Even more so if going Demon.

Originally posted by toynbee:

Also, what "bugs" are we talking about with deceiver? The bypassing of immunities with merged spells?
Because if this gets removed, the class will plummet in effectiveness as almost all its dc spells are mind affecting in nature. You essentially would be forced to dip into sorcerer in this case, locking you from the lvl 20 capstone ability. Not sure if this would be a desirable solution.

I disagree. There are plenty of spells MD has that are not mind-affecting. Mind-affecting ones are just the most popular because they can just bypass immunities right now, so there is no reason to experiment more. Arcana Theft is also bugged, in that it acts like Greater Dispel and strips things that shouldn't be stripped (and can apparently outright kill enemies).

[toynbee]

Originally posted by revan1229:

I disagree. There are plenty of spells MD has that are not mind-affecting. Mind-affecting ones are just the most popular because they can just bypass immunities right now, so there is no reason to experiment more. Arcana Theft is also bugged, in that it acts like Greater Dispel and strips things that shouldn't be stripped (and can apparently outright kill enemies).

Care to provide examples? Genuinely curious. Assume, you go up against non-trash undead with spell levels 1-4 available to you.

Slow is nice. And you can do damage with evocation, of course. But this makes you kind of a one-trick pony. Not much variation here.

Maybe blind? But with blinding, I found that every enemy where it would be really useful tends to have blind fight or something similar that prevents him from getting defensive penalties.

Overall I don't see much standing out here. Compared to let's say an exploiter wizard with a crossblooded dip who can use all his mind-affecting stuff, his low level conjuration spells. And can also use slow or damage blasts on top.