Question about DEX AC bonus calculation

[Uzkin]

I have a level 12 Tower Shield Specialist with the following:
- DEX 22 (+6 modifier)
- Dawn of Life tower shield +3 (max DEX AC 2)
- Full Plate +3 (max DEX AC 1)
- light personal encumbrance
- no fatigue
- armor training x3 (--> increases max DEX AC from armor by 3)
- tower shield training x3 (--> increases max DEX AC from armor by an additional 3)

My AC bonus from DEX is +5. Shouldn't it be +6? If +5 is correct (not bugged), then how is that calculated?

[Razer]

From the above i would say it should even be +4

[Drake]

It should even be +4. Full plate 1 max + 3 limits at +4 ac from dex.

It's not an addition. The item that limits the most is the one that counts.

If it's +5 that means you have another bonus that raises your armour max to 5.

[Yannir]

Tower Shield Training and Armor Training don't actually stack but TST just increases the base value of AT? That's what the wording seems to imply but it's a little unclear.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Razer:

From the above i would say it should even be +4

Armor Training gives +1 base AC allowance and Tower Shield Training increases that to +2.

[hilburnashua]

So, here the the relevant section of the rules for Tower Shield Specialist.

"At 3rd level, a tower shield specialist gains armor training as normal, but while he employs a tower shield, the armor penalty is reduced by 3 and the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor increases by 2."

What this means is it replaces armor training WHEN you have a tower shield equipped, it does not stack. In which case the max dex modifier for the armor you are wearing is increased by 2 for the first rank of this ability and 1 more for each rank after that. So if you have tower shield training 3, it increases the max dex allowed by the armor by 4 (2+1+1) which with a normal suit of full plate means you max dex bonus to AC is +5.

Dear gods, Owlcat got some programming correct. I can see why your confused. And that is a snipe at Owlcat, no you sir. It's pretty easy to misunderstand that Tower Shield Training doesn't stack with Armor Training.

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

So, here the the relevant section of the rules for Tower Shield Specialist.

"At 3rd level, a tower shield specialist gains armor training as normal, but while he employs a tower shield, the armor penalty is reduced by 3 and the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor increases by 2."

What this means is it replaces armor training WHEN you have a tower shield equipped, it does not stack. In which case the max dex modifier for the armor you are wearing is increased by 2 for the first rank of this ability and 1 more for each rank after that. So if you have tower shield training 3, it increases the max dex allowed by the armor by 4 (2+1+1) which with a normal suit of full plate means you max dex bonus to AC is +5.

Dear gods, Owlcat got some programming correct. I can see why your confused. And that is a snipe at Owlcat, no you sir. It's pretty easy to misunderstand that Tower Shield Training doesn't stack with Armor Training.

I see, thanks for the explanation. :)

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by Drake:

It should even be +4. Full plate 1 max + 3 limits at +4 ac from dex.

It's not an addition. The item that limits the most is the one that counts.

If it's +5 that means you have another bonus that raises your armour max to 5.

Tower shield at rank 3 increases max dex bonus by +4, 2 for the initial rank and 1 for each additional rank. So at rank 3 (OP example) it increases the max dex bonus by +4, regular full plate has a max dex adjustment to ac of +1, So it should be +5. If it was half-plate, which has a max dex modifier of +0, then there would need to be some additional effect in play.

[Uzkin]

So if I understood correctly, all that tower shield training ever does, is increase the max DEX bonus to AC by 1 compared to regular fighter armor training? For example, at level 12 a regular fighter would gain 1+1+1 = 3 whereas TSS would gain 2+1+1 = 4? This difference doesn't improve at all for a TSS when he levels up?

That is... a much weaker archetype bonus than I thought when I made this char. :(

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

So if I understood correctly, all that tower shield training ever does, is increase the max DEX bonus to AC by 1 compared to regular fighter armor training? For example, at level 12 a regular fighter would gain 1+1+1 = 3 whereas TSS would gain 2+1+1 = 4? This difference doesn't improve at all for a TSS when he levels up?

That is... a much weaker archetype bonus than I thought when I made this char. :(

Well, you get a bunch of other stuff without losing any bonus feats. Just lose Weapon Training and the useless Bravery.

[Uzkin]

Sure, but they should have "Tower Shield Training" appear on the character sheet only ONCE at level 3, and simply state that it increases the max DEX bonus to AC of armor by 1 when wielding a tower shield.

Now that it appears on the character sheet multiple times and gains higher ranks every four levels, it gives the impression that it somehow improves armor training every time. If it appeared just once (at level 3) and stated that it just increases the max DEX bonus by 1, it would be much less misleading.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Originally posted by Razer:

From the above i would say it should even be +4

Armor Training gives +1 base AC allowance and Tower Shield Training increases that to +2.

Ah that would make sense. I've never used those feats. Of course it makes no sense that it adds dex value to it. But it's a game mechanic.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Sure, but they should have "Tower Shield Training" appear on the character sheet only ONCE at level 3, and simply state that it increases the max DEX bonus to AC of armor by 1 when wielding a tower shield.

Now that it appears on the character sheet multiple times and gains higher ranks every four levels, it gives the impression that it somehow improves armor training every time. If it appeared just once (at level 3) and stated that it just increases the max DEX bonus by 1, it would be much less misleading.

It probably does that as long as you have no armor that limits it further. It's just that they don't stack.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Sure, but they should have "Tower Shield Training" appear on the character sheet only ONCE at level 3, and simply state that it increases the max DEX bonus to AC of armor by 1 when wielding a tower shield.

Now that it appears on the character sheet multiple times and gains higher ranks every four levels, it gives the impression that it somehow improves armor training every time. If it appeared just once (at level 3) and stated that it just increases the max DEX bonus by 1, it would be much less misleading.

Yeah, agreed.
I'd guess there's a coding reason why they do it as they do. Maybe it needs to be re-applied each time you gain a new level of Armor Training.

[hilburnashua]

I think Tower Shield Specialist is an interesting option, especially with the Mythic Tower Shield abilities. Loosing weapon group training is harsh, with the duelist gloves that is a -3 to -7 on attack rolls and damage modifier. So great for being a very difficult to hit fighter, but pretty bad for offense.

[dataseer21]

The thing about tower shield specialist though is that if you want to use a tower shield pretty much the only one that can and not suck is that archetype.