Ulbrig as tank?

[Ignis Imperia]

Hey so,

I'm currently entering act 2 and Seelah is still my tank (although sometimes it could be argued I am the tank since I see my armor occasionally go to 28 AC under certain circumstances which if I turn on defensive stance brings me above her AC) and I'd kind of like to use a different tank, I don't find Seelah a particularly interesting character, and I keep hearing heavy armor is kind of garbage on a tank, and since her dexterity utter travesty, that would go on to suggest she won't be very good with light armor or no armor.

I also do not like playing paladin all that much since I already keep Daeran on my party for a lot of what paladin can do worse (mainly the channel abilities) and she doesn't quite like my whimsical bard constantly gaslighting everyone.

Therefore I was thinking of trying to make Ulbrig the tank, so, my question is, is his pure class good for tanking if I give him the mythic transformation so that he can always remain in birdie form?

I did play Shifter before, but I played Manticore, so I don't know if they make good tanks on the other archetypes, manticore obviously doesn't, because, ranged, duh.

[Dramn]

I was almost always terrified of Ulbrig being annihilated; for me the only reason he ever lived (if he was being focused) was because of how much HP he had and then him having Die Hard/Last Stand

Basically for me, he can live a lot more than any of the other dps characters I've had so far, but he can still suffer when 2 or more guys are hitting him. I really liked to use death from above (I think it's called) so that I could get away from enemies targeting him without being blocked and still doing a lot of damage

[jonnin]

for me its speed. If we assume you keep seelah as a metal paladin in heavy (cause her first feat) and shield type build... she will never get within melee range of an enemy again after act 1. Her horse makes a *fine* tank, as it can move rapidly to engage the enemy, as can a leopard or a shifter or a monk or any of many other high defense fast moving ideas. But the paladin walking hunk of metal build is hopeless. And its aggravating.. the game constantly offers up these kinds of ideas (in the premade builds) that are total failure in practice. Cammie is just bad too, as another example... bad at healing, bad a buffing, bad at debuffing, bad at combat, just barely passable at some subset of those with a lot of TLC but conversion to rowdy archer and she & lann can clear out all the enemy before seelah can waddle out far enough to even see that a fight is going on.

*Granted you can swap seelah to some other working build.

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by jonnin:

for me its speed. If we assume you keep seelah as a metal paladin in heavy (cause her first feat) and shield type build... she will never get within melee range of an enemy again after act 1. Her horse makes a *fine* tank, as it can move rapidly to engage the enemy, as can a leopard or a shifter or a monk or any of many other high defense fast moving ideas. But the paladin walking hunk of metal build is hopeless. And its aggravating.. the game constantly offers up these kinds of ideas (in the premade builds) that are total failure in practice. Cammie is just bad too, as another example... bad at healing, bad a buffing, bad at debuffing, bad at combat, just barely passable at some subset of those with a lot of TLC but conversion to rowdy archer and she & lann can clear out all the enemy before seelah can waddle out far enough to even see that a fight is going on.

*Granted you can swap seelah to some other working build.

Camellia from what I heard is ACTUALLY a way better tank than Seelah if you build her into it, unfortunately in my party her role is that of an Evil Eye debuffer and a summoner, but many people like to build into her buckler proficiency + no armor because she starts with good dex and Spirit Hunter specifically is weapon-oriented shaman mostly.

The horse I have had little success with so far. To help Seelah reach combat in time, it can be helpful to pick up the Effortless Armor spell with Camellia, she doesn't have all that useful spells on that tier, so a spell slot or two for it might be worth.

I would consider Regill as tank, but the issue is I refuse to have a halfling on my party. :D Even though they make excellent tanks due to being a small target. I might just build myself into a tank though, just like Camellia I use rapier + buckler and as I mentioned, I reach pretty good AC with just a few buffs.

[Yannir]

Heavy Armor being bad for tanking is actually kind of old news after they added Mythic Armor Focus. But pets are better tanks. Because it's not a huge issue if they die. Just rest and they're back up. Unlike characters that you need expensive spells for to revive.

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Heavy Armor being bad for tanking is actually kind of old news after they added Mythic Armor Focus. But pets are better tanks. Because it's not a huge issue if they die. Just rest and they're back up. Unlike characters that you need expensive spells for to revive.

I wish I knew this before wasting Terendelev's scale on my horse in Gwerm's crib... :D

[kotor_fan]

Originally posted by jonnin:

for me its speed. If we assume you keep seelah as a metal paladin in heavy (cause her first feat) and shield type build... she will never get within melee range of an enemy again after act 1. Her horse makes a *fine* tank, as it can move rapidly to engage the enemy, as can a leopard or a shifter or a monk or any of many other high defense fast moving ideas. But the paladin walking hunk of metal build is hopeless. And its aggravating.. the game constantly offers up these kinds of ideas (in the premade builds) that are total failure in practice. Cammie is just bad too, as another example... bad at healing, bad a buffing, bad at debuffing, bad at combat, just barely passable at some subset of those with a lot of TLC but conversion to rowdy archer and she & lann can clear out all the enemy before seelah can waddle out far enough to even see that a fight is going on.

*Granted you can swap seelah to some other working build.

I have no idea if you're talking about Unfair, but how the hell do you make Camellia bad at tanking and buffing?
She's swimming in useful spells and makes for incredible tank.
I mean ♥♥♥♥, can't imagine not having her in my party until Act 3 when game gives much more options.

50AC + 35 Touch AC tank in Act 3 (without min-maxing) is probably higher than Seelah will have in full armor.
As for Combat, I'd say 14/20x3 Crit is A-OK on rapier, bonus points if you get her bit of sneak attack.

Not going to debate Seelah since she is slow as hell without horse, but otherwise rocks insane AC by the end of the game, with some ridiculous DR due to Mythic feats.

EDIT: For Ulbrig, get him 1 level dip to class with Mage Armor (Archmage armor), change him to some melee class with few Shifter classes later and he'll make perfectly fine off-tank. He has decent AC but wouldn't use him as main tank.

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by kotor_fan:

Originally posted by jonnin:

for me its speed. If we assume you keep seelah as a metal paladin in heavy (cause her first feat) and shield type build... she will never get within melee range of an enemy again after act 1. Her horse makes a *fine* tank, as it can move rapidly to engage the enemy, as can a leopard or a shifter or a monk or any of many other high defense fast moving ideas. But the paladin walking hunk of metal build is hopeless. And its aggravating.. the game constantly offers up these kinds of ideas (in the premade builds) that are total failure in practice. Cammie is just bad too, as another example... bad at healing, bad a buffing, bad at debuffing, bad at combat, just barely passable at some subset of those with a lot of TLC but conversion to rowdy archer and she & lann can clear out all the enemy before seelah can waddle out far enough to even see that a fight is going on.

*Granted you can swap seelah to some other working build.

I have no idea if you're talking about Unfair, but how the hell do you make Camellia bad at tanking and buffing?
She's swimming in useful spells and makes for incredible tank.
I mean ♥♥♥♥, can't imagine not having her in my party until Act 3 when game gives much more options.

50AC + 35 Touch AC tank in Act 3 (without min-maxing) is probably higher than Seelah will have in full armor.
As for Combat, I'd say 14/20x3 Crit is A-OK on rapier, bonus points if you get her bit of sneak attack.

Not going to debate Seelah since she is slow as hell without horse, but otherwise rocks insane AC by the end of the game, with some ridiculous DR due to Mythic feats.

To be fair I think Camellia is one of the toughest companions to learn to play when you're new. I still play her completely terribly, never really letting her attack cos I just find Shaman has WAY TOO MUCH going on at all times.

Early on players generally will manage to set Ember to spam slumber, have a rogue & a tank melee, fighters and the likes melee the priority targets sometimes locking down wizards, archers just... kinda do their own thing requiring little management.

However, with Shaman you have so many things going on it's difficult to keep up. Hexes, tons of spells, weapon buffs, the aoe roll buff, ... I believe I mentioned everything, but what I mean is generally you have a character dedicated to like one of these roles or two, but Shaman is one of those classes you kind of need understanding of all of them to properly utilize.

I will however just reiterate, I am bad at the game, so I do not want to say it's impossible to keep up, absolutely not, just sharing my experience with the subject as a beginner.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Ignis Imperia:

Originally posted by Yannir:

Heavy Armor being bad for tanking is actually kind of old news after they added Mythic Armor Focus. But pets are better tanks. Because it's not a huge issue if they die. Just rest and they're back up. Unlike characters that you need expensive spells for to revive.

I wish I knew this before wasting Terendelev's scale on my horse in Gwerm's crib... :D

Oh damn. Pretty rough. xD

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Originally posted by Ignis Imperia:

I wish I knew this before wasting Terendelev's scale on my horse in Gwerm's crib... :D

Oh damn. Pretty rough. xD

Yeah Vrock thought he was funny when it was just about to die and just randomly decided to ignore tank last second, rush to my horse and triple-crit it for 70 dmg in total.. I didn't even notice it died in such a short while so I left the zone, went to the mansion and went like "Wait where the heck is my horse... oh... well, here goes my last scale!"

[jonnin]

Originally posted by kotor_fan:

Originally posted by jonnin:

for me its speed. If we assume you keep seelah as a metal paladin in heavy (cause her first feat) and shield type build... she will never get within melee range of an enemy again after act 1. Her horse makes a *fine* tank, as it can move rapidly to engage the enemy, as can a leopard or a shifter or a monk or any of many other high defense fast moving ideas. But the paladin walking hunk of metal build is hopeless. And its aggravating.. the game constantly offers up these kinds of ideas (in the premade builds) that are total failure in practice. Cammie is just bad too, as another example... bad at healing, bad a buffing, bad at debuffing, bad at combat, just barely passable at some subset of those with a lot of TLC but conversion to rowdy archer and she & lann can clear out all the enemy before seelah can waddle out far enough to even see that a fight is going on.

*Granted you can swap seelah to some other working build.

I have no idea if you're talking about Unfair, but how the hell do you make Camellia bad at tanking and buffing?
She's swimming in useful spells and makes for incredible tank.
I mean ♥♥♥♥, can't imagine not having her in my party until Act 3 when game gives much more options.

50AC + 35 Touch AC tank in Act 3 (without min-maxing) is probably higher than Seelah will have in full armor.
As for Combat, I'd say 14/20x3 Crit is A-OK on rapier, bonus points if you get her bit of sneak attack.

Not going to debate Seelah since she is slow as hell without horse, but otherwise rocks insane AC by the end of the game, with some ridiculous DR due to Mythic feats.

EDIT: For Ulbrig, get him 1 level dip to class with Mage Armor (Archmage armor), change him to some melee class with few Shifter classes later and he'll make perfectly fine off-tank. He has decent AC but wouldn't use him as main tank.

I didn't mention tanking, and I can see how she could do that role fine. Buffing and debuffing, though, she is spread too thin. She has lowish wis score, and if tanking you probably took dex 20 at least so its going to be several points behind daeran and soisel forever. Spreading feats around to crit and fight and tank and sneak attack instead of land spells, in short order all her attack and debuff spells gonna be resisted or have low DC checks and forget ever dispelling anything. Ignoring debuffing, she is as good as any to buff the team but you still need someone with the same spells along if you want debuff so she becomes a third wheel. So yea, dedicated tank and OK at fighting late game when crit feats come into play, or a mehish dedicated spell caster with a stat handicap that is less crippling late game but always there. Or you can flip her to the rogue she was built to be and excel at something from the starter dungeon to the rest of the game .. she may be able to excel with TLC in the hands of an expert player well versed in shamanism but she shines in the hands of a raw noob as a rogue right off. And this one is just personal... I don't like battle master so much as other spirits.

[kotor_fan]

Originally posted by jonnin:

Originally posted by kotor_fan:

I have no idea if you're talking about Unfair, but how the hell do you make Camellia bad at tanking and buffing?
She's swimming in useful spells and makes for incredible tank.
I mean ♥♥♥♥, can't imagine not having her in my party until Act 3 when game gives much more options.

50AC + 35 Touch AC tank in Act 3 (without min-maxing) is probably higher than Seelah will have in full armor.
As for Combat, I'd say 14/20x3 Crit is A-OK on rapier, bonus points if you get her bit of sneak attack.

Not going to debate Seelah since she is slow as hell without horse, but otherwise rocks insane AC by the end of the game, with some ridiculous DR due to Mythic feats.

EDIT: For Ulbrig, get him 1 level dip to class with Mage Armor (Archmage armor), change him to some melee class with few Shifter classes later and he'll make perfectly fine off-tank. He has decent AC but wouldn't use him as main tank.

I didn't mention tanking, and I can see how she could do that role fine. Buffing and debuffing, though, she is spread too thin. She has lowish wis score, and if tanking you probably took dex 20 at least so its going to be several points behind daeran and soisel forever. Spreading feats around to crit and fight and tank and sneak attack instead of land spells, in short order all her attack and debuff spells gonna be resisted or have low DC checks and forget ever dispelling anything. Ignoring debuffing, she is as good as any to buff the team but you still need someone with the same spells along if you want debuff so she becomes a third wheel. So yea, dedicated tank and OK at fighting late game when crit feats come into play, or a mehish dedicated spell caster with a stat handicap that is less crippling late game but always there. Or you can flip her to the rogue she was built to be and excel at something from the starter dungeon to the rest of the game .. she may be able to excel with TLC in the hands of an expert player well versed in shamanism but she shines in the hands of a raw noob as a rogue right off. And this one is just personal... I don't like battle master so much as other spirits.

Sorry, I might be coming off as strongly disagreeing with you, and that's only partially true.
She is hard to build as off-tank/tank/dps, very hard. But she is genuinely useful and great at her role.

I've never tried to build her similar to Woljif, so her spells are exclusively for buffing/self-buffing. Nothing else. No touch attacks, no AOE spells, none of it.
She auto-attacks with decent AB (not great), great crit chance, and has lots of AC.

She gets rapier and fencing grace, gets improved crit, both of first 2 mythics go to enduring spells for buff duration, first hex goes to Protective Luck, then iceplant into battle master. Cackle is great, but for me personally, Ember is 100% of the time in party, and she does it better (while also one-shotting bosses, which makes my whole "I need to protect her at all costs" kind of silly. She's protecting me.)

Granted, others do her role better, both pure defense (Woljif), or buffer (seriously, Daeran is crazy). If you get her spell penetration, you're forgoing other useful stuff, so I never did it.
So yes, she is not best in anything. But I disagree that she's bad for tanking (really isn't), and strongly disagree she's bad with buffing (gets vital spells very early, think she's earliest companion to get communal delay poison).

Now if I could just find a way to make Sosiel useful that doesn't involve domains, I'd be a happy person. Guess we all have our preferences...

[Rizilliant]

It took me quite awhile to get his survivability up but he was still very susceptible to certain encounters.. Hes an awesome sniper with his flight/charge, and swipe.. Love his damage, hes like Amiri on steroids

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Ignis Imperia:

Originally posted by jonnin:

for me its speed. If we assume you keep seelah as a metal paladin in heavy (cause her first feat) and shield type build... she will never get within melee range of an enemy again after act 1. Her horse makes a *fine* tank, as it can move rapidly to engage the enemy, as can a leopard or a shifter or a monk or any of many other high defense fast moving ideas. But the paladin walking hunk of metal build is hopeless. And its aggravating.. the game constantly offers up these kinds of ideas (in the premade builds) that are total failure in practice. Cammie is just bad too, as another example... bad at healing, bad a buffing, bad at debuffing, bad at combat, just barely passable at some subset of those with a lot of TLC but conversion to rowdy archer and she & lann can clear out all the enemy before seelah can waddle out far enough to even see that a fight is going on.

*Granted you can swap seelah to some other working build.

Camellia from what I heard is ACTUALLY a way better tank than Seelah if you build her into it, unfortunately in my party her role is that of an Evil Eye debuffer and a summoner, but many people like to build into her buckler proficiency + no armor because she starts with good dex and Spirit Hunter specifically is weapon-oriented shaman mostly.

Seelah is actually a much better tank, as she can use CHA for AC through Scaled Fist or Nature's Whispers, and CHA is much easier to boost than DEX. Additionally, Seelah has Smite Evil for more AC and can dip HK for Smite Chaos, too (last I played, these bonuses stacked). Paladin saves are a bonus and can be doubled with Bestow Grace, which doesn't work on Camellia.

[Konebred]

My preference is to use Seelahs horse as the main aggro at start with seelah enlarged with a big nasty 2 hander. I do buff the ♥♥♥♥ out of Ulbrig though with blur, mage armor and the usual defensive stuff just because he draws a lot of fire when he dives on spellcasters and other backline threats. Being able to fly over grease is a huge boon at the start as well. One fight in prticular I remember him doing well was the alchemist fight in the assault at the end of chap 2. I dropped a grease right at the door with him plugging it up. Everything got so bunched up and all the crazy AoOs from grease and the fear effect from Seelahs2 hander (forgot the name) had everything exploding. If you really want to TANK tank, you can have him delve in to ancient sarkovian rituals and go against everything he believes in for a witch dip. Get mage armor, the iceplant hex and mythic mage armor he should be alright.

[jonnin]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Ignis Imperia:

Camellia from what I heard is ACTUALLY a way better tank than Seelah if you build her into it, unfortunately in my party her role is that of an Evil Eye debuffer and a summoner, but many people like to build into her buckler proficiency + no armor because she starts with good dex and Spirit Hunter specifically is weapon-oriented shaman mostly.

Seelah is actually a much better tank, as she can use CHA for AC through Scaled Fist or Nature's Whispers, and CHA is much easier to boost than DEX. Additionally, Seelah has Smite Evil for more AC and can dip HK for Smite Chaos, too (last I played, these bonuses stacked). Paladin saves are a bonus and can be doubled with Bestow Grace, which doesn't work on Camellia.

right, this is why I added the * about moving her into a viable build. I was specifically saying the heavy armor waddler approach does not work well. Its not a lack of AC, its getting her set up with high AC AND higher movement base so she isn't always running toward the next thing and getting there right as it falls dead. I know you eventually can get lighter heavy armor in mithril and reduce the penalty in various ways, but time you do, you probably already did something else instead. Riding the horse works too, but the horse is pretty good on its own and I hate combining them.