First playthrough

[Ignis Imperia]

Hey, so, I remember trying this game out in the past shortly and just kind of resigning in character creation because it just felt too much, I now played a few more CRPGs and am halfway towards finishing Rogue Trader for the first time, so I'd like to give this one another go..

My question is what difficulty is generally recommended for first playthrough with 0 knowledge of pathfinder system and whether it's possible to actually finish this game without obscene amount of quicksaving-quickloading without watching guides/following other people's builds on normal/core difficulty, just learning on the go..

[Ignis Imperia]

Postat inițial de MARegulus:

Postat inițial de CaimDark:

The game warns you in no uncertain terms that Core is not recommended for those unfamiliar with the Pathfinder system. However, if, like me, you're unfamiliar with it but have previous experience with cRPGs (especially D&D cRPGs) and follow NPC build guides online, you'll probably be just fine on Core. If you want to build your entire party without outside help, though, then it becomes much harder

I'm mostly avoiding guides, have moderate exposure to crpgs, and playing on Daring feels just right. I definitely feel I'd be too strong if I was min-maxing with guides or was a crpg pro/veteran. I like having a little wiggle room to experiment with builds on my own, even if they aren't optimal. I'm sure you can beat Core and higher without complete optimization, but with easier character deaths and full-damage crits that seems like a recipe for save-scumming frustration for most gamers.

I'm not against people who use guides, nor am I a supporter of it personally. I never use guides on first playthrough unless some system is just insanely convoluted (hello Paradox games), I tend to just take it at highest pace I can manage, learn stuff on first playthrough, second playthrough - that is when for me time comes where I might look into some guides on what I could improve about my style of play, to attempt highest difficulties or challenge runs etc.

One more question arose for me actually that is related to first playthrough though, it is kind of a big one for me. Morality. Does the game specifically favor any alignment or are they roughly equal in how strong they are and how much content is available for each? I'm asking that because I played DOS2 before on tactician, and that one heavily punishes you early for not doing every quest perfectly exactly the way that gets you the most experience (which means having a quite fluid morality) and rewards greatly the playstyle of what can only be summarized as murder hobo.

I like to generally make my first playthroughs what I'd call closer to Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral, so I just wanna know if I'll be shooting myself in the foot since for example the game was to heavily favor good aligned characters.

[kotor_fan]

Postat inițial de Ignis Imperia:

One more question arose for me actually that is related to first playthrough though, it is kind of a big one for me. Morality. Does the game specifically favor any alignment or are they roughly equal in how strong they are and how much content is available for each? I'm asking that because I played DOS2 before on tactician, and that one heavily punishes you early for not doing every quest perfectly exactly the way that gets you the most experience (which means having a quite fluid morality) and rewards greatly the playstyle of what can only be summarized as murder hobo.

I like to generally make my first playthroughs what I'd call closer to Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral, so I just wanna know if I'll be shooting myself in the foot since for example the game was to heavily favor good aligned characters.

Good news in this case: Game has tons of evil/neutral/good choices that are more than "Kill=evil, neutral=abandon quest, good = forgive anything"

Granted, there's lots of those options (as in, you can select kill to kill quest giver, select "I don't give a ♥♥♥♥" to not take quest), but they're always at bottom of the list, as "I can't be bothered with this" option.

Most quests will give actual evil options (or what game considers evil), neutral options etc.
By that I mean you might swindle someone, do something for evil character instead of good person, act cruelly towards people (or just have no mercy despite it being possible), or being rationally evil (there's a companion that's lawful evil, and oh boy, there's a reason why so many love the ♥♥♥♥♥♥).

Then there's mythic paths (you'll see them when time comes).
At level 3 mythic path you get to select which mythic path you want.
Some are good, some are neutral, some are evil. All have unique content.
Not to spoil story, just tidbit that if you select lich path, guess what, you're not such a good guy, you're evil by all measures, even have to do some evil things.
But there's unique content for it.

There is murder hobo path, but it's:
1. Harder to unlock
2. Unlocks at last act (when you're 100 hours or so ingame)
3. Still has unique content (though I've only heard this, as I never did it)

[Damphair]

Just finished my first playthrough and it was on normal, I've played BG1, 2 and 3 prior so I have some knowledge by the system but was still a bit overwhelmed by the choices. It was a good challenge, nothing felt unfairly difficult and by act 4 my character started to become ridiculously overpowered and the rest of the game became a breeze.

[Ignis Imperia]

In the end I decided to attempt first playthrough on Daring difficulty, while Magus says difficulty 5, it was the most interesting one that caught my eye at the time and none of the difficulty 1-3 really did, so I am going to be attempting neutral evil elf bloodbound and see how it goes. Thanks to everyone for kind answers, insight and advice.

[Ignis Imperia]

Just a little update, so far it has been going pretty grim as my primary class function, the black blade, is completely useless to me given that yes I can summon it but as game gone "Yeah the only stats you should care about are int and dex", I now cannot effectively use it with everything having AC of 18+, since it only gives me +1 to attack, meaning I have roughly on average 15% chance to hit with it.

I have so far had total party wipe only once, when fighting the first proper boss (to avoid spoilers, I'll say it's when you first have to choose between two companions right after), due to her deciding it would be fun to just oneshot us one by 1 with her very reasonable rolls of exclusively 18-20 back to back while causing fear on everyone constantly and being more or less immune to any debuffs as she'd always save on them, thankfully her damage was very moderate, only about 200% of each one of us hp since her every attack just had to be a crit..

That fight was what I like to call "total ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥", but I am going to attribute it to how DND and I assume PF adventures tend to be. Unreasonably difficult ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ early on if you get unlucky rolls, but generally for instance in BG3 the first 3 levels are considerably more difficult than the next 9, so maybe it's just that. I'll keep trying.

[kotor_fan]

Postat inițial de Ignis Imperia:

Just a little update, so far it has been going pretty grim as my primary class function, the black blade, is completely useless to me given that yes I can summon it but as game gone "Yeah the only stats you should care about are int and dex", I now cannot effectively use it with everything having AC of 18+, since it only gives me +1 to attack, meaning I have roughly on average 15% chance to hit with it.

I have so far had total party wipe only once, when fighting the first proper boss (to avoid spoilers, I'll say it's when you first have to choose between two companions right after), due to her deciding it would be fun to just oneshot us one by 1 with her very reasonable rolls of exclusively 18-20 back to back while causing fear on everyone constantly and being more or less immune to any debuffs as she'd always save on them, thankfully her damage was very moderate, only about 200% of each one of us hp since her every attack just had to be a crit..

That fight was what I like to call "total ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥", but I am going to attribute it to how DND and I assume PF adventures tend to be. Unreasonably difficult ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ early on if you get unlucky rolls, but generally for instance in BG3 the first 3 levels are considerably more difficult than the next 9, so maybe it's just that. I'll keep trying.

If I might throw something out there, and this is by no means needed, just makes super early game a bit less of a slog: EXP sharing
By default, all EXP is shared as if party has 6 members, even if you're solo.

You've gone through that part so you know who companions are:
Seelah, Camellia, Lann and Wenduag.

In difficulty options is part that says "EXP only for active members".
Turn it ON, when dialogue with Seelah is down to close dialogue window, turn it off so she's exact same xp as you, turn it back on after she joins.
Repeat for Camellia, repeat for Lann and Wenduag.

Now, while doing secret maze (and short part just after it), you'll be almost 2 level higher once done, and that makes insane difference.

Again, it's not needed, I've done core runs with it turned off (it's off by default), but honestly, I think that's how it SHOULD be (as in, full exp until you pick members up).
Start of the game is nothing to write home about, you've got nothing but autoattacks, no strategy to it.
It also makes some stuff (such as mentioned boss fight), less of RNG ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, since you can actually hit reliably.

In long run, those few hundred exp mean literally ♥♥♥♥ all, you'll hit max level loooooong before the game ends, but it makes game start much more enjoyable.

If you want to continue that after starting next area (you still won't be at 6 members), sure, but at that point it's no longer worth as much so why bother changing options every so often.

[Draken]

As for the Black Blade, you want Slashing Grace.
That way your Black Blade gets affected by Weapon Finess and you get your Dexterity to damage instead of Strength.


At least if you want to actually wield your Black Blade and not just use it as a summon.

[Myth Alric]

Core isn't that difficult if you play it like tabletop pathfinder, ie you rest all the time. Though if you rest as much as people do in table top, you would suffer corruption penalties a lot of the time.

[Ignis Imperia]

I am a little confused on how to handle my casters, am I supposed to be resting very often? Since for instance now I had my first little encounter with shadows, and only way I can hurt those is either divine zap, which takes 20 of them to kill one, during which time they generally lower 2 of my party members to 0 strength (funny mechanics that), or cure light wounds, which they resist 80% of time and still take 4-6 successful casts to kill one (I get 2 charges a rest).

So um.. how the hell am I supposed to fight these things? It's not even like I went out of my way to fight them, they're literally in first zone after tutorial..

[Draken]

Postat inițial de Ignis Imperia:

I am a little confused on how to handle my casters, am I supposed to be resting very often? Since for instance now I had my first little encounter with shadows, and only way I can hurt those is either divine zap, which takes 20 of them to kill one, during which time they generally lower 2 of my party members to 0 strength (funny mechanics that), or cure light wounds, which they resist 80% of time and still take 4-6 successful casts to kill one (I get 2 charges a rest).

So um.. how the hell am I supposed to fight these things? It's not even like I went out of my way to fight them, they're literally in first zone after tutorial..

The marketplace is a pretty big main zone and you will find quite a few tougher enemies here.
You should take a look around the other places first, especially ones with side quests. You might pick up a companion that can help a lot with undead. Or get some level ups that help as well.
Third, you will find a ton of consumables. Undeads do not like Flasks of Holy Water very much.

[Ignis Imperia]

Alright.. I think I've reached my quit moment, I've encountered some bigger demon boss, Vrock, I do not see this fight as anything but unfair. I need to hit 22 AC at level 3, he has 128 hp, 10 dmg reduction against anything but Good (aka entire party aside the paladin is basically just there for moral support), he gets apparently about 3-6 attacks a turn, each attack deals over 20 dmg, it can stun entire party every 2 turns, purposefully ignores the tank and instead oneshots the entire party first, when it's below half HP it uses mirror image because apparently it felt 22 AC was too little and it would be way more fun to fight it if even rolling 18 wasn't enough. (not even gonna count the fact my entire party has been successfully rolling 2-7 rolls for the entire fight, that's just dice bs)

The fact this is in a level 3 area and it feels completely impossible to me on 8th retry aside maybe reloading until I get perfect RNG where every single attack is a nat 20 and crits him for at least enough damage to go beyond the damage reduction and he misses literally everything with nat 1s completely ruins the game for me now, because it raises the question "Okay so we had the shadows, that was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but we got past it, okay so now we have utterly ridiculous demon just hanging out right after the tutorial, fun, guess I'll go fk myself, what's next? 80 AC boss that oneshots me the moment I read its name?"

I wouldn't say a thing if I was playing on Unfair, because that's what the difficulty is made for, to be unfair, but this is just Daring, not even Core, I don't see a way to justify putting such frustrating encounters right at start of the game, all it does is immediately discourage new players who are already struggling with all the game's systems being introduced all the time.

I'll take a break and do some research I suppose on how people dealt with this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but currently I'm like 80% toward just giving up, I don't want to keep bashing my head against the wall hoping it eventually cracks and lets me in when it really just feels like behind the wall there's an even tougher one. Which is a shame because the story, the classes and the ambience generally feels nice, but the combat I've been until now tolerating because while it was not particularly enjoyable for me, it seemed mostly fair, but now that is no longer the case. I am not interested in reloading an encounter 100 times just to get perfect RNG.

[Draken]

Postat inițial de Ignis Imperia:

Alright.. I think I've reached my quit moment, I've encountered some bigger demon boss, Vrock, I do not see this fight as anything but unfair. I need to hit 22 AC at level 3, he has 128 hp, 10 dmg reduction against anything but Good (aka entire party aside the paladin is basically just there for moral support), he gets apparently about 3-6 attacks a turn, each attack deals over 20 dmg, it can stun entire party every 2 turns, purposefully ignores the tank and instead oneshots the entire party first, when it's below half HP it uses mirror image because apparently it felt 22 AC was too little and it would be way more fun to fight it if even rolling 18 wasn't enough. (not even gonna count the fact my entire party has been successfully rolling 2-7 rolls for the entire fight, that's just dice bs)

The fact this is in a level 3 area and it feels completely impossible to me on 8th retry aside maybe reloading until I get perfect RNG where every single attack is a nat 20 and crits him for at least enough damage to go beyond the damage reduction and he misses literally everything with nat 1s completely ruins the game for me now, because it raises the question "Okay so we had the shadows, that was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but we got past it, okay so now we have utterly ridiculous demon just hanging out right after the tutorial, fun, guess I'll go fk myself, what's next? 80 AC boss that oneshots me the moment I read its name?"

I wouldn't say a thing if I was playing on Unfair, because that's what the difficulty is made for, to be unfair, but this is just Daring, not even Core, I don't see a way to justify putting such frustrating encounters right at start of the game, all it does is immediately discourage new players who are already struggling with all the game's systems being introduced all the time.

I'll take a break and do some research I suppose on how people dealt with this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but currently I'm like 80% toward just giving up, I don't want to keep bashing my head against the wall hoping it eventually cracks and lets me in when it really just feels like behind the wall there's an even tougher one. Which is a shame because the story, the classes and the ambience generally feels nice, but the combat I've been until now tolerating because while it was not particularly enjoyable for me, it seemed mostly fair, but now that is no longer the case. I am not interested in reloading an encounter 100 times just to get perfect RNG.

Take a deep breath. This is an optional elite enemy. Like the Water Elemental. You don't have to beat him, he is there for the challenge. Also, you literally summoned him by tinkering with that one summoning circle. :D

Solution:
Do other things first.
Come back when you are level 4 or 5 and have a full party of 6.
Find some magical items, scrolls and potions that help.
As mentioned before, you are not supposed to clear the marketplace in one go at level 3.

[Niklasbane(PM)]

Postat inițial de Ignis Imperia:

-snip-

...Pretty much all this, yes.
The devs' idea of "difficulty" is ridiculously inflated stats to the point where you can only succeed either by knowing everything ahead of time and preparing specifically for it or getting statistically impossibly lucky.
Even when you prepare, you're going to need to save scum plenty, that's just the game they designed.

There are multiple layers of insidious design decisions that screw over all players through the first chapters of the game.

What I usually do against the Vrok is put it to sleep with Ember and save-scumming until it works, then coup d' graceing it. If it gets a single turn to cast it's aoe stun spore, you've probably lost the fight already.

[Ignis Imperia]

Postat inițial de Draken:

Postat inițial de Ignis Imperia:

Alright.. I think I've reached my quit moment, I've encountered some bigger demon boss, Vrock, I do not see this fight as anything but unfair. I need to hit 22 AC at level 3, he has 128 hp, 10 dmg reduction against anything but Good (aka entire party aside the paladin is basically just there for moral support), he gets apparently about 3-6 attacks a turn, each attack deals over 20 dmg, it can stun entire party every 2 turns, purposefully ignores the tank and instead oneshots the entire party first, when it's below half HP it uses mirror image because apparently it felt 22 AC was too little and it would be way more fun to fight it if even rolling 18 wasn't enough. (not even gonna count the fact my entire party has been successfully rolling 2-7 rolls for the entire fight, that's just dice bs)

The fact this is in a level 3 area and it feels completely impossible to me on 8th retry aside maybe reloading until I get perfect RNG where every single attack is a nat 20 and crits him for at least enough damage to go beyond the damage reduction and he misses literally everything with nat 1s completely ruins the game for me now, because it raises the question "Okay so we had the shadows, that was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but we got past it, okay so now we have utterly ridiculous demon just hanging out right after the tutorial, fun, guess I'll go fk myself, what's next? 80 AC boss that oneshots me the moment I read its name?"

I wouldn't say a thing if I was playing on Unfair, because that's what the difficulty is made for, to be unfair, but this is just Daring, not even Core, I don't see a way to justify putting such frustrating encounters right at start of the game, all it does is immediately discourage new players who are already struggling with all the game's systems being introduced all the time.

I'll take a break and do some research I suppose on how people dealt with this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but currently I'm like 80% toward just giving up, I don't want to keep bashing my head against the wall hoping it eventually cracks and lets me in when it really just feels like behind the wall there's an even tougher one. Which is a shame because the story, the classes and the ambience generally feels nice, but the combat I've been until now tolerating because while it was not particularly enjoyable for me, it seemed mostly fair, but now that is no longer the case. I am not interested in reloading an encounter 100 times just to get perfect RNG.

Take a deep breath. This is an optional elite enemy. Like the Water Elemental. You don't have to beat him, he is there for the challenge. Also, you literally summoned him by tinkering with that one summoning circle. :D

Solution:
Do other things first.
Come back when you are level 4 or 5 and have a full party of 6.
Find some magical items, scrolls and potions that help.
As mentioned before, you are not supposed to clear the marketplace in one go at level 3.

water what now? I missed that one somehow.. despite walking around that cultist den for like 2 hours, only found medium earth elemental..

[Draken]

Postat inițial de Ignis Imperia:

water what now? I missed that one somehow.. despite walking around that cultist den for like 2 hours, only found medium earth elemental..

That was in the Labyrinth. There is an optional very strong Water Elemental that you can find.
There are similar optional fights all over the game. As well as fights that you have access to pretty early, but were you can just come back later when you are stronger.