Paladin Divine Weapon Bond description misleading?

[lynchie72]

Using DWB for first time on Stonelord Paladin that just got to lvl 5.

The description for DWB says that the DWB +1 enhancement *stacks* with existing enhancements on the weapon. It doesn't. Any +1 weapon I cast DWB on it just replaces a "masterwork +1 enhancement" with a "+1 enhancement" as far as the characters +Attack number goes. It only adds an additional +1 enhancement for Attack on a non-enhanced weapon.

Also the DWB description doesn't tell you that you only get the *Flaming* and *Keen* weapon property selections initially. The description should mention that *Axiomatic*, *Speed*, *Holy* etc property selections come later. Presumably.

This a bug, working as intended or am I misunderstanding something?

[mk11]

If you are using it on a masterwork item you will replace the +1 masterwork attack bonus by an +1 enhancement attack bonus and should get a +1 enhancement damage bonus. It will also now be magical and be able to harm creatures that are immune to non-magical weapons (e.g. Shadows).

[lynchie72]

Originally posted by mk11:

If you are using it on a masterwork item you will replace the +1 masterwork attack bonus by an +1 enhancement attack bonus and should get a +1 enhancement damage bonus. It will also now be magical and be able to harm creatures that are immune to non-magical weapons (e.g. Shadows).

Thanks for your reply. Appreciated.

Ok I see the +1 Damage enhancement now.

I did some testing. For Attack - the +1 enhancement from DWB only stacks with other weapon *Bonuses* like say a +1 from Weapon Focus. It does not stack with other *Enhancements*.

So a Warhammer with a +1 enhancement due to double proficiency from Dwarf race and Smith background does not get an additional +1 enhancement from DWB.

However, a Quarterstaff that you have weapon focus *bonus* +1 does stack with the +1 *enhancement* from Divine Weapon Bond. For Attack.

The tooltip description for DWB is correct in so far as it says the *enhancement* stacks with other weapon *bonuses* but it should make it clear that it does not stack with other enhancements.

[Razer]

Masterwork aren't magical. They don't have the +1 magical property. If you have a +1 weapon you can turn that into +2 with DWB. Scaling upto +5 maximum. At least that's how it should work. Haven't tried this ability in forever.

Normally enhancements don't stack, but this ability specifically states it stacks with inherent property of the weapon.

Enhancements and such never stack with racial or background properties. Those +1s will always be replaced with magical properties.


The way "stacking" works in this game is based on type. As long as the source type is different it can stack. As such enhancement bonus never stacks with itself. But another source like "untyped" bonus or "morale" bonus or "insight" bonus does stack for the same property.

There are a few things that do stack or stack in different ways. AC is odd in this for instance Dodge (type) bonus to AC always stack. But the real weird one is Natural armor (type) bonus to AC because it has subtypes. Subtypes always stack when it comes to natural armor bonus to AC.

[Draken]

Masterwork bonus as well as Background bonus do not stack with anything. Not even with each other.

They are replaced by any enchantment bonus.

[lynchie72]

Originally posted by Draken:

Masterwork bonus as well as Background bonus do not stack with anything. Not even with each other.

They are replaced by any enchantment bonus.

Ok so unfortunately, as far as Attack is concerned, Masterwork is an Enhancement - if you add +1 from DWB it swaps the Masterwork Enhancement +1 for just Enhancement +1. You still get an extra point of +1 Enhancement damage though.

Also it makes the weapon Magical for purposes of Damage Reduction / Magic right?

[Niklasbane(PM)]

You have stumbled onto the single biggest design issue of the game unfortunately; awful tooltips that can easily screw you over because you relied on something that wasn't true so now you've shagged your build.

Tons of tooltips in the game are either misleading, uninformative or outright incorrect and you just have to find that out the hard way or have someone tell you because the game sure won't.

[reidj062]

Originally posted by lynchie72:

Using DWB for first time on Stonelord Paladin that just got to lvl 5.

The description for DWB says that the DWB +1 enhancement *stacks* with existing enhancements on the weapon. It doesn't. Any +1 weapon I cast DWB on it just replaces a "masterwork +1 enhancement" with a "+1 enhancement" as far as the characters +Attack number goes. It only adds an additional +1 enhancement for Attack on a non-enhanced weapon.

Also the DWB description doesn't tell you that you only get the *Flaming* and *Keen* weapon property selections initially. The description should mention that *Axiomatic*, *Speed*, *Holy* etc property selections come later. Presumably.

This a bug, working as intended or am I misunderstanding something?

There's no difference between a +1 enhancement bonus and a +1 masterwork enhancement. By the rules, a magic weapon must have the masterwork bonus prior to becoming a +1 bonus.

From the tabletop SRD: "The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5,"

So yes, they should stack, up to the limit.

I'm pretty sure the paladin class pretty clearly lays out what the enhancement properties are and where they get them. I've looked at warpriest and spirit shaman as well, and I don't recall a single instance where it wasn't clear. If it's not laid out in the description for the initial ability, it should be laid out in the class progression chart, which shows what you gain at every level.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by lynchie72:

Using DWB for first time on Stonelord Paladin that just got to lvl 5.

The description for DWB says that the DWB +1 enhancement *stacks* with existing enhancements on the weapon. It doesn't. Any +1 weapon I cast DWB on it just replaces a "masterwork +1 enhancement" with a "+1 enhancement" as far as the characters +Attack number goes. It only adds an additional +1 enhancement for Attack on a non-enhanced weapon.

Also the DWB description doesn't tell you that you only get the *Flaming* and *Keen* weapon property selections initially. The description should mention that *Axiomatic*, *Speed*, *Holy* etc property selections come later. Presumably.

This a bug, working as intended or am I misunderstanding something?

It's not a bug per say, it's that the description text doesn't match the mechanics....So, yes, you are missing is a small little sentence that isn't in the PC game description but is in the pen & paper version.

From pathfinder main book (where it explains the paladin class):

Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.

The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost (see Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities). These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.

If a weapon bonded with a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount to her side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin's level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every 4 levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.

At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it. At 15th level, a paladin's mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin's level + 11.

Should the paladin's mount die, the paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Source: https://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/classes/paladin.html#paladin

[Kinezu]

The way it actually works in-game is like Magic Weapon, Greater spell. Despite what it says it won't stack, but it will use the highest bonus. Running it on Seelah right now and was a bit disappointed.
Still a good ability imo, eventually you can add both holy and axiomatic on it for heaps of free damage.

[lynchie72]

Originally posted by Kinezu:

The way it actually works in-game is like Magic Weapon, Greater spell. Despite what it says it won't stack, but it will use the highest bonus. Running it on Seelah right now and was a bit disappointed.
Still a good ability imo, eventually you can add both holy and axiomatic on it for heaps of free damage.

Yeah it'll stack with +1's with description "Other" or "Focus" but not "Enhancement".

Camille's Spirit Weapon ability is the same.