How do you like the shifter class?

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

I play the shifter-dragon class. The class is perfect for that because strength is also recommended in the cc. I know i loose access to all the other shift forms but the Dragon shift form is all i need. It makes much more sense than making a caster class with focus on strength

[Necessary]

Thanks for the feedback! We really appreciate the fact, that you just vibing with a Dragon form :)

[Rickson]

Glad you're enjoying it, but dragon shifter is just objectively the worst shifter archetype. It's minor aspect goes from hot garbage to situationally useful, the major form comes much later than the others then caps out as something that literally any character can do a better version of by taking UMD and stocking up on scrolls, and it doesn't even get unlimited usage of it's underwhelming minor forms like every other shifter. A standard level 20 shifter that uses a scroll of dragonkind 3 has +2 to str, con, and ac just from using the scroll instead of the dragon shifter form, then +6 to str, con, dex, damage, and AC from infinite minor forms.

Anyway, the base shifter, feyform, and manticore are great, Rageshaper and fiendflesh can be good, but take more work, and the best way to be a dragon is still to have another character turn you into one with magic, which is super disappointing.

[Cutlass Jack]

I'm loving Wendu as a Manticore. Feels perfect for her.
And I really like Rageshaper. Gives that punching goodness without having to be a monk.

[MjKorz]

I like it. Strengthmaxxing Spiderelephant feels like a real tank:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2957374433
Should work really well with Azata Incredible Might and Pounce via Skald's Greater Beast Totem.

You can also make a literal spiderpig:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BARjPuUN36Y&ab_channel=RyGuselle

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by Rickson:

Glad you're enjoying it, but dragon shifter is just objectively the worst shifter archetype. It's minor aspect goes from hot garbage to situationally useful, the major form comes much later than the others then caps out as something that literally any character can do a better version of by taking UMD and stocking up on scrolls, and it doesn't even get unlimited usage of it's underwhelming minor forms like every other shifter. A standard level 20 shifter that uses a scroll of dragonkind 3 has +2 to str, con, and ac just from using the scroll instead of the dragon shifter form, then +6 to str, con, dex, damage, and AC from infinite minor forms.

Anyway, the base shifter, feyform, and manticore are great, Rageshaper and fiendflesh can be good, but take more work, and the best way to be a dragon is still to have another character turn you into one with magic, which is super disappointing.

When you pick the dragon shifter you get access to all dragon forms which are the strongest. I get loosing the ability to turn into other forms but i only want the dragon form. In the description stands that a shifter can turn into a dragon when he wants so you don’t have a number anymore for each day (level 20)

[Rickson]

You get to use the major form as much as you want at level 20, but the minor aspect that let's you absorb an element is still limited in use, might be a bug. Like I said earlier the best dragon transformation the shifter gets is exactly the same as the spell dragonkind 2. They don't even get the strongest version of the dragonkind spell which is a real slap in the face of anyone wanting to play the be a dragon fantasy.

[thunda]

Originally posted by Rickson:

You get to use the major form as much as you want at level 20, but the minor aspect that let's you absorb an element is still limited in use, might be a bug. Like I said earlier the best dragon transformation the shifter gets is exactly the same as the spell dragonkind 2. They don't even get the strongest version of the dragonkind spell which is a real slap in the face of anyone wanting to play the be a dragon fantasy.

Yea for sure. Dragonshifter should gain access to MORE powerful Dragon-forms, since its their innate ability instead of casting some spell at will at anyone

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by Rickson:

You get to use the major form as much as you want at level 20, but the minor aspect that let's you absorb an element is still limited in use, might be a bug. Like I said earlier the best dragon transformation the shifter gets is exactly the same as the spell dragonkind 2. They don't even get the strongest version of the dragonkind spell which is a real slap in the face of anyone wanting to play the be a dragon fantasy.

Not true. The description says you get 2 dragon forms and on level 20 you become an elderly dragon

[Rickson]

Originally posted by Mr Jt (Gog is king):

Not true. The description says you get 2 dragon forms and on level 20 you become an elderly dragon

quote from the capstone dragonblood shifter ability greater wyrmshifter
"At 20th level, a dragonblood shifter's tie to her draconic abilities reaches it's peak. She becomes immune to sleep and paralysis effects. She can use wildshape to transform into a dragon at will."

No mention at all of a third elder dragon shape. You can easily just create a new character in the first dlc, like I just did and test all of this. Level 20 dragonblood shifter does not get a third dragon form, still only adds +6 to strength and AC, and +4 to con; it is garbage. Draconic aspect is still time limited and still mediocre.

[Nismu]

played feyform shifter and it is nice with lot attacks and sneak attack for extra damage it is quite simple as pure martials tend to be and in the end samy feel from 1-20

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by Rickson:

Originally posted by Mr Jt (Gog is king):

Not true. The description says you get 2 dragon forms and on level 20 you become an elderly dragon

quote from the capstone dragonblood shifter ability greater wyrmshifter
"At 20th level, a dragonblood shifter's tie to her draconic abilities reaches it's peak. She becomes immune to sleep and paralysis effects. She can use wildshape to transform into a dragon at will."

No mention at all of a third elder dragon shape. You can easily just create a new character in the first dlc, like I just did and test all of this. Level 20 dragonblood shifter does not get a third dragon form, still only adds +6 to strength and AC, and +4 to con; it is garbage. Draconic aspect is still time limited and still mediocre.

So is sorc still the best way to be a dragon?

[Rickson]

Originally posted by Mr Jt (Gog is king):

Originally posted by Rickson:

quote from the capstone dragonblood shifter ability greater wyrmshifter
"At 20th level, a dragonblood shifter's tie to her draconic abilities reaches it's peak. She becomes immune to sleep and paralysis effects. She can use wildshape to transform into a dragon at will."

No mention at all of a third elder dragon shape. You can easily just create a new character in the first dlc, like I just did and test all of this. Level 20 dragonblood shifter does not get a third dragon form, still only adds +6 to strength and AC, and +4 to con; it is garbage. Draconic aspect is still time limited and still mediocre.

So is sorc still the best way to be a dragon?

The "best" is probably a base class shifter with a brown fur transmuter mercenary to turn you into a dragon and provide a ton of other great buffs. The 5 stacking minor forms combined with shifter's fury and BFT buffs and whatever you get from the mythic path of your choice would be strong.

To make a single character do it on their own is something I've been trying to figure out for a few days now. Brown fur with 10 levels of Eldritch knight and 4 of Dragon Disciple with lich mythic might be the simplest way to have access to dragon forms at least by chapter 3. If you don't mind stunting your caster growth you can even trade some eldritch knight for 6 levels of shifter for shifter's fury, caster level would max out at 24 and you'd never get the level 10 lich spells but iterative attacks in dragon form is great. You could then go legend and max out shifter and keep going into BFT to regain access to the dragon spells, not sure it would be worth it though.

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by Rickson:

Originally posted by Mr Jt (Gog is king):

So is sorc still the best way to be a dragon?

The "best" is probably a base class shifter with a brown fur transmuter mercenary to turn you into a dragon and provide a ton of other great buffs. The 5 stacking minor forms combined with shifter's fury and BFT buffs and whatever you get from the mythic path of your choice would be strong.

To make a single character do it on their own is something I've been trying to figure out for a few days now. Brown fur with 10 levels of Eldritch knight and 4 of Dragon Disciple with lich mythic might be the simplest way to have access to dragon forms at least by chapter 3. If you don't mind stunting your caster growth you can even trade some eldritch knight for 6 levels of shifter for shifter's fury, caster level would max out at 24 and you'd never get the level 10 lich spells but iterative attacks in dragon form is great. You could then go legend and max out shifter and keep going into BFT to regain access to the dragon spells, not sure it would be worth it though.

You could also go the mutagen way. You can boost your strength incredible high. But if you want to be the guy which want to transform into a dragon shifter isn’t bad though but sorcerer has access to the 3 form as well. Probably the only class

[Rickson]

Originally posted by Mr Jt (Gog is king):

You could also go the mutagen way. You can boost your strength incredible high. But if you want to be the guy which want to transform into a dragon shifter isn’t bad though but sorcerer has access to the 3 form as well. Probably the only class

Basically every full caster class gets access to the strongest dragon forms. Every full arcane caster can get dragonkind 1,2, and 3 and most full divine casters can get shapechange as a 9th level spell which includes the dragonkind 3 forms. Technically any character could have access to the strongest dragon form from chapter 5 onwards just by taking the gold dragon path, but that will generally be sub optimal as well. I'm not sure why you seem to be stuck on sorcerer as the best way. If you want to be a caster dragon then sorcerer is fine, but you'd probably get more mileage out of ice or fiery body in that case.

I've already been over why dragonblood shifter is bad, even if you just want to play as a dragon. It's probably ok on lower difficulties but even then it will fall off by the end of chapter 3 where you could just hire a BFT merc to turn you and your entire party into a stronger dragon and invalidate all of your special abilities and would be a much stronger dragon if you just respec into baseline shifter and got all the stat boosts from the minor forms.

tldr: Dragonblood shifter is a fantastic concept, but is mechanically total garbage and I am super upset about it.

[Echo]

Originally posted by Rickson:

I've already been over why dragonblood shifter is bad, even if you just want to play as a dragon. It's probably ok on lower difficulties but even then it will fall off by the end of chapter 3 where you could just hire a BFT merc to turn you and your entire party into a stronger dragon and invalidate all of your special abilities and would be a much stronger dragon if you just respec into baseline shifter and got all the stat boosts from the minor forms.

tldr: Dragonblood shifter is a fantastic concept, but is mechanically total garbage and I am super upset about it.

While I agree with your overall conclusion, having played the class I think you're missing a few things.

1) Shifter forms have polymorph bonuses, while dragonkind spells have size bonuses. That means you can stack Legendary Proportions with a shifter form, but can't with Dragonkind. So any bonus you're losing from Dragonkind 3 you're getting back this way.

2) Your shifter claws won't work with a Dragonkind spell. That means you lose out on the various bonuses and DR bypass. Though you can still use shifter's fury.

3) The dragon shifter forms are quite a bit smaller than the spell type, which makes moving around in and out of combat a lot better. Now you can actually stack melee companions next to you, as opposed to taking up a whole room by yourself. This is a quality of life issue that you won't see mentioned often, but makes a big difference.

That being said, the archetype could definitely use a buff. The lack of additional minor aspects especially hurts.