Incorporeal

[Ignis Imperia]

Hey, so

I came to a realization yesterday while playing my sorcerer on stream for a quite long time in act 3.. especailly when we reached Wintersun.. I really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate anything incorporeal, because as a lich, even consume undead isn't the nuke against them it's supposed to be since they only take 50% damage from it (♥♥♥♥ the logic) and they always have insane AC, immunities and many of these have utterly ridiculous spell lists full of level 7-9 spells or level 1-6 spells heightened to like 28 DC and higher.

So I was wondering, since I noticed this is more and more an issue for me which I have yet to find a solution for, how do people for instance deal with the Spectre in Wintersun on Unfair? Or with the Ancient Sarkorian Ghost near Drezen? I believe they have even more insane stats on Unfair and they deal double damage and have insane DCs, so I just cannot picture how you're supposed to effectively fight them. Especially if you have shifters on your party, you're just going to suffer in my experience because most of them can't even hit the incorporeal creature.

I tried healing of course but they have way too high touch AC for that, melee isn't overly efficient against them, maybe with blessed weapon or something? Archers seem to be by far the strongest option because Wenduag + Arueshalae duo can dish out about 70 damage to it a turn on average each (if they hit with at least 50% accuracy) due to Arue's ranger bond, mages can do damage at least with magic missiles unless the incorporeal creature happens to have either immunity to them or high spell resistance, but still nowhere near the damage output of the archers and wastes 2 spell slots a turn (quickened + normal cast) so in case of Spectre which you have to fight 7 times and has about I believe 350 HP each time on Core difficulty, you need roughly 3 full turns of archers uninterrupted and not debuffed firing at him while magic missiles need to be cast about 3-4 times per fight too (meaning 21-28 casts in total), it just ends up feeling like a very frustrating fight.

I know how to survive ghosts by now of course, just put death ward on someone and send them ahead and the ghost will generally stay on them, doesn't solve the issue however of them being pain in the ass to kill and still they tend to randomly yeet a high level spell at your party, like the Spectre the entire time being on Regill tanking him only to randomly flick Wenduag with Baleful Polymorph removing about 60% of my team dps against this kind of enemy.

[Soul]

one interesting thing about a ghost near drezen....

can kinda cheese it with Ulbrig....

I mean that sarkorian ghost likes to cast rift of ruin which can be a pain.... but ive noticed it likes to target Ulbrig sometimes... which in his griffon form he's immune to ground effects... so when he's targeted by that spell it automatically fails.... just wastes a turn

[Schlumpsha]

Ghost Touch spell. That way you deal full damage and can hit incorporeals like a champ.

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by Soul:

one interesting thing about a ghost near drezen....

can kinda cheese it with Ulbrig....

I mean that sarkorian ghost likes to cast rift of ruin which can be a pain.... but ive noticed it likes to target Ulbrig sometimes... which in his griffon form he's immune to ground effects... so when he's targeted by that spell it automatically fails.... just wastes a turn

You can absolutely cheese that ghost's opening very easily. Just have literally anyone before you engage in combat from afar cast any kind of summon spell right under the ghost and then backpedal with your entire party until he casts the rift at the say skellies or monsters, but the thing is that fight is still almost guaranteed to take a heavy toll on your because his next course of action tends to regardless be to chase your party down, cast bubonic plague cloud on top of them, then the aoe that gives everyone fatigue and starts knocking them down, then some super high damage spells, and overall he just loves to give the most annoying debuffs to get rid of possible.

That's the thing with these encounters I loathe the most, everytime I fight a ghost, it's like I have to dedicate an entire rest just to beating that stupid ghost. In case of Wintersun Spectre, sometimes that's even 2 rests due to having to fight it 7 times. I understand the Wintersun one is effectively the punishment and challenge for stealing his whip, he even warns you if you're playing Lich (I believe that's what causes the ghosts to appear everywhere, or maybe it's see invisibility), but that doesn't change the fact the fight just feels like.. it wasn't designed to kill you, it seems designed to waste your resources and annoy the hell out of you.

Which is what I hate about incorporeal creatures, they generally do not pose that much of a challenge to kill, they're just taking forever to die and while refusing to die they put ton of permanent or long-term debuffs on you to waste your restorations and first aid kits.

It feels especially annoying in case of say that Spectre really, because it is an entirely ambient activity to hunt it down and fight it, but guess what, you gotta beat that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 7 times to get any reward, for that you have to first find him 7 times, which in its own is a huge hassle due to how spread out his locations are, and after you beat him finally, the location itself just feels like a joke, there isn't anything remotely comparable to how difficult this guy was to kill there. Everything has an easy answer on how to kill it. Just this guy takes forever and will do his utmost to make his remaining existence as insufferable as can be.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Ignis Imperia:

Originally posted by Soul:

one interesting thing about a ghost near drezen....

can kinda cheese it with Ulbrig....

I mean that sarkorian ghost likes to cast rift of ruin which can be a pain.... but ive noticed it likes to target Ulbrig sometimes... which in his griffon form he's immune to ground effects... so when he's targeted by that spell it automatically fails.... just wastes a turn

You can absolutely cheese that ghost's opening very easily. Just have literally anyone before you engage in combat from afar cast any kind of summon spell right under the ghost and then backpedal with your entire party until he casts the rift at the say skellies or monsters, but the thing is that fight is still almost guaranteed to take a heavy toll on your because his next course of action tends to regardless be to chase your party down, cast bubonic plague cloud on top of them, then the aoe that gives everyone fatigue and starts knocking them down, then some super high damage spells, and overall he just loves to give the most annoying debuffs to get rid of possible.

That's the thing with these encounters I loathe the most, everytime I fight a ghost, it's like I have to dedicate an entire rest just to beating that stupid ghost. In case of Wintersun Spectre, sometimes that's even 2 rests due to having to fight it 7 times. I understand the Wintersun one is effectively the punishment and challenge for stealing his whip, he even warns you if you're playing Lich (I believe that's what causes the ghosts to appear everywhere, or maybe it's see invisibility), but that doesn't change the fact the fight just feels like.. it wasn't designed to kill you, it seems designed to waste your resources and annoy the hell out of you.

Which is what I hate about incorporeal creatures, they generally do not pose that much of a challenge to kill, they're just taking forever to die and while refusing to die they put ton of permanent or long-term debuffs on you to waste your restorations and first aid kits.

It feels especially annoying in case of say that Spectre really, because it is an entirely ambient activity to hunt it down and fight it, but guess what, you gotta beat that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 7 times to get any reward, for that you have to first find him 7 times, which in its own is a huge hassle due to how spread out his locations are, and after you beat him finally, the location itself just feels like a joke, there isn't anything remotely comparable to how difficult this guy was to kill there. Everything has an easy answer on how to kill it. Just this guy takes forever and will do his utmost to make his remaining existence as insufferable as can be.

if your looking for force damage.... there are better options than just magic missile...

battering blast and silver darts spell... both level 3... and both can have intensified and bolster metamagic applied to them....

magic missile does 1d4+1.... with 5 missiles max.... so 5d4 + 5 +10 bolstered damage

battering blast deals 5d6 damage per hit by 10th level... and 1 extra blast per 5 levels... so by 20th level thats 4 attacks.... and with intensified thats 10d6 per blast.... so 40d6 + 80 bolstered damage by level 20...

silver darts is 10d6.... it can be intensified up to 15d6... and bolstered for +30... so 15d6 + 30 bolstered

so minimal damage wise from all of them with metamagic....

single target
bolstered magic missile.... 5d4 + 5 + 10 bolstered... 20 minimal damage
bolstered intensified battering blast level 20.... 40d6 + 80.... 120 minimal damage

AOE target
bolstered intensified silver darts... 15d6 + 30.... 45 minimal damage

[reidj062]

The mass specters on Wintersun and the ones in the ruins near Drezen I just crank their stats. I honestly think they were drunk when they made the Ashberry Hamlet ones...a couple spectres with that many hit points casting level 8 spells they are immune to is absolutely broken for PCs of that level.

Both times it's these incredibly powerful ghosts with zero narrative purpose or buildup. They're just annoying and there to be a pain. As for their incorporeal immunities, those are working as intended, per the game.

[forkofspite]

Most of the Wintersun ghosts are harmless as long as you have it focused on someone with death ward. However, a couple have some nasty spells as does the ruins ghost in Act 2. On core and hard, it wasn't too diffcult to kill them quickly - you can start the ruins ghost on your terms and have the important characters avoid/survive the wintersun ghost effects.
Haven't made it that far on unfair yet, though - not sure if I will either.

Remember that Finnean is a ghost touch weapon - have your best damage dealer use it.

[kotor_fan]

Originally posted by Ignis Imperia:

That's the thing with these encounters I loathe the most, everytime I fight a ghost, it's like I have to dedicate an entire rest just to beating that stupid ghost.

Not sure if you got to that point already, but just before Act 4 there's a dungeon.
That dungeon has, to me personally, most annoying enemy in the game (not including swarms).

They're basic humans with some beefed up stats.
And they always, always, ALWAYS, cast AOE dispel.

Talking about annoying enemies that are "now you need to rest", that's them bastards.
At least exhaustion can be cured easily with either Seelah mercy or lesser restoration.

Few dispelled crucial buffs are either "now my fights turn into a slog because my fighters either don't have buffs to resist annoying spells, or stats to overcome AC so 1 minute fight lasts 5" or "now you rest".

Not sure if you use Camellia, she has ability to do full dmg to incorporeal enemies (one of her weapon enchantments). And Finnean was already mentioned. Never found them especially hard to kill, mostly just a nuisance that makes fight last longer.

[Pulverizer [FIN]]

Kineticists work on everything. I like deadly earth.