Am I doing metamagic wrong?

[Ignis Imperia]

Hey

So I have been playing sorcerer for a while now and just now I thought it might be a good idea to actually read what my abilities say and I noticed something about for instance snowball or magic missiles. It says they deal damage PER CASTER LEVEL, so I looked at my caster level and currently it's 13, so here's what I'm wondering... is me heightening Snowball to a level 5 spell actually doing anything to improve it or am I just wasting a level 5 spell slot for something that does not need it and would be better off staying level 1 spell due to faster caster time that way?

[kotor_fan]

See the description:
"The snowball deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 5d6) on a successful hit"

That tells you it will cap when your caster level is 5. Caster level is left on the screen in spellbook (Sorcerer 10 for example means your caster level is 10).
That means spell caps at 5d6 at Sorcerer 5.

So heightened does nothing for it.

When heightened is useful - Spells with save DC.
Example: Phantasmal killer - Level 5 -> 29, Level 6 -> 30, Level 7 -> 31

Some damage spells do benefit from higher level.

For Snowball specifically, you would be better with Maximize or Bolster.
Bolster adds more damage per dice (So 5d6 + 10 (2x5)). Maximize to make it max.
Empower early on.

Snowball can do some insane damage since it allows easy stacking, and if you've got +1 element damage from Bloodline + Gloves that give +1 on lvl 1 spell (works with metamagic), it will be through the roof.

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by kotor_fan:

See the description:
"The snowball deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 5d6) on a successful hit"

That tells you it will cap when your caster level is 5. Caster level is left on the screen in spellbook (Sorcerer 10 for example means your caster level is 10).
That means spell caps at 5d6 at Sorcerer 5.

So heightened does nothing for it.

When heightened is useful - Spells with save DC.
Example: Phantasmal killer - Level 5 -> 29, Level 6 -> 30, Level 7 -> 31

Some damage spells do benefit from higher level.

For Snowball specifically, you would be better with Maximize or Bolster.
Bolster adds more damage per dice (So 5d6 + 10 (2x5)). Maximize to make it max.
Empower early on.

Snowball can do some insane damage since it allows easy stacking, and if you've got +1 element damage from Bloodline + Gloves that give +1 on lvl 1 spell (works with metamagic), it will be through the roof.

So basically the only thing heighten does for Snowball is increase its DC of the staggered effect, right?

And yeah I know it's absolutely brutal, few days ago on stream I was doing the camp defense against gargoyles and was very worried about it since as sorcerer (very vulnerable in melee) and Wenduag (also vulnerable in melee cos I made her archer) that's not a good position to be in, but thankfully I learnt just how strong even unbuffed snowball became at that point when I nearly oneshot one of the gargoyles outright. It was then I really learnt the power of the quicken rod. :D

[kotor_fan]

Yep, for Snowball it will be save DC (and you really shouldn't be increasing it for that, it's pointless).
Some spells do have use for heightened.
Example: Spells that can use max 25dX -> Unless merged spellbook (Lich or Angel), you're stuck at CL 20. Heightened can get it higher (though intensified is better for that).

[Immortal Reaver]

Heighten Snowball, ups the DC of Stagger effect of Snowball.
But Heighten does not increase damage of spell, it makes spell less likely to be resisted (which can increase damage of spells like fireball because enemy failed Reflex save, but it is not worth it just for that).
Heighten is also only metamagic that increases DC. Even though other metamagics make spells use higher level spell slots, they do not increase DC.

Bolster is best for that, because it gives a lot of damage for cheap +1. (And with Mythic Metamagic make it +0).
Empower is the biggest damage, but costs +3, and it is best to use Metamagic Wands for that, because it is just not worth it, unless you have specific thing in mind.
Maximize is mid damage and increase for +2.

[Ignis Imperia]

Originally posted by kotor_fan:

Yep, for Snowball it will be save DC (and you really shouldn't be increasing it for that, it's pointless).
Some spells do have use for heightened.
Example: Spells that can use max 25dX -> Unless merged spellbook (Lich or Angel), you're stuck at CL 20. Heightened can get it higher (though intensified is better for that).

Ah yeah I was wondering why my CL is 13 at lv10 as sorcerer, must be because of the merged spellbook, I am a Lich after all. I mostly use Lich spells atm because they're a lot of fun to use, especially Repurpose is just hilarious with how you can effectively play pokemon in the game. :D

Thanks for explanation, I only finally took a moment to stop and take a look at my metamagic rods properly because I noticed Intensified seems to almost never trigger when I toggle it on and got reading on the others too.

[Myth Alric]

Yeah heighten is mainly just increasing the DC of the spell. Which allows you to continue using lower level spells that rely on a DC save, against harder enemies. Intensify is kind of what you are looking for. It increase the max levels of a spell by 5. So the max 5d6 snowball would be 10d6(if you are level 10 or above). And that is only a one level increase too, so that is a lot of extra damage at higher levels. There are several metamagic that increase damage too, though you kind of have to do the math to figure out which is best in any given situation.

[forkofspite]

Just pointing out that heighten can be useful even for non-DC spells. You can heighten any spell to any level, so you can prep it at any level (i.e., more casts per day if you can't find something better for those higher level slots and don't other metamagic feats that would be more appropriate to bring it to the desired spell level). You want more death wards, go ahead and heighten them even though it does absolutely nothing.

Example, suppose you have snowball, heighten spell, bolster spell, and don't have better uses for Level 5 slots. You could add bolster plus enough heighten to bring the total to Level 5. The DC for the stun will be based as a Level 4 spell plus you get the bolster. If you had empower spell too (probably not a good choice - this is just an example), you could prepare a bolstered, empowered, heightened snowball to Level 5. The stun DC would be based as a Level 2 spell (bolster adds 1, empower adds 2, so you'd only add 1 from heighten).

[Soul]

heighten metamagic can be very useful

of course the basic function of the metamagic says it heightens it to a higher level unlike other metamagic spells....

meaning a snowball as a level 1 spell.... a intensified snowball as a level 2 spell.... and a intensified bolstered snowball as a level 3 spell.... all share the exact same DC as the level 1 snowball

a heightened spell is what makes the spell's DC increase per spell level.... so a heightened to level 4 intensified bolstered snowball will have a +1 DC for raising it from level 3 to 4

thing is you could also use heighten to get free spells.... say red salamander ring for instance.... you could equip the ring and have fireball on your spellbook... then you apply metamagic heighten to it... but dont increase its level... just heighten the fireball to level 3.... now you can take the ring off and retain the level 3 fireball....

also sorcerous reflex is great in giving you a free quicken spell at start of combat... by sorcerer level 10 with sorcerous reflex you can be slinging level 3 spells for first turn in every combat.... so first turn you can throw intensified bolster snowball 2 times thats 10d6 + 20 per snowball.... WITH metamagic maximize or empower rods for both spells..... so 160 damage with maximize for both snowballs

and next turn you can cast another intensified bolstered snowball with maximize metamagic rod followed by a quicken metamagic rod

which real time mode it helps out a lot since spontaneous casters spend a full round to cast metamagic spells.... that dont matter so much during turn based when you can take the time to cast... still useful of course...

but normally what it means without it is that in real time even if your sorcerer wins the initiative roll before the enemy spellcaster for instance.... and you decide to cast a metamagic spell... you'll be spending the full time casting while the enemy spellcaster has already went next and finished their own normal spell.... potentially breaking your concentration check.... but with sorcerous reflex that means you can cast a spell as a swift action and pop off your metamagic soon as your sorcerer gets their turn... its more like a quickdraw showdown then in real time

I dont bother learning empower or maximize metamagic though.... empower increases spell by +2 and maximize by +3.... but there are a lot of those types of metamagic rods out there.... going for lower level metamagics bolster and intensified are easier to stack with each other.... plus plague of madness staff can be used.... every 3 spells of same spell makes it so next spell is empowered and maximized... so you can pop off a cantrip a few times before fight.... and in fight the first snowball will be empowered and maximized.... then you need to cast snowball a couple of times which you could use a maximize rod to boost those till the effect kicks in again.... and once you do as long as you keep casting that one spell it will always be empowered and maximized till you break the chain

[Warbird]

Heighten metamagic would be useful even if only to let you memorize more copies of a spell you like to use.

For example, an arcane trickster could get lot of use of extra controlled fireballs and might want to put extra memorized copies of it within his 5th level spells slots, especially if you prefer that spell over the fire snake one... Just sayin.

Edit: in that particular case, Bolster would actually be even better for the same +1 level... But a spell that can't be bolstered could use Heighten to set extra copies of it a higher levels...