A small thing to resolve.

[Yannir]

Ok, so maybe for the next Pathfinder game, if ever there is one, or maybe this one.

DC-based item enchantments.

Whenever I see an item, typically a weapon, with a DC check for X effect(extra damage, an inflicted condition, a -Y stat decrease, etc.) I usually assume it's trash. The DC checks are pretty much always too small to ever land. Particularly for low level weapons on higher difficulties.

But here's the thing. The spell, Greater Magic Weapon, can make low level weapons very viable by upgrading their enchantment level.

Hasty Eradicator, which is a +1 Dagger, is IMO the best off-hand dagger in the game even at lvl 20. You can get 2 extra off-hand attacks, without losing any +to hit, with it without taking a single TWF feat. I based Woljifs build around using the weapon. GMW it up to a +5 weapon, the spell lasts an hour per caster level. Need I say more?

I saved 2 feats and it's still a better outcome than I would've gotten with the feats on another dagger. And the feats would still stack with the extra attacks from the weapon. I checked. It makes the fully upgraded Radiance look like a sad piece of garbage in comparison.

This is good design for a weapon. It's enchantment allows it to do something you can base a build around. Another good example is the scythe, Wide Sweep, even after its nerf. DC-based weapon enchantments are not good design. They don't scale off your characters, which is my main gripe with them. A good design allows the weapon, or the item as the checks are present in atleast armors as well, to function in a way that can elevate a build.

While I don't think every magical weapon should be playstyle-defining, they should all still be functional. Make the DC's to save scale off of your character. Their damage and hit already does, why doesn't this?

(As a side note, Kingmaker has better weapons and items in general than Wrath. You could've maybe taken some of those and repackaged them into a different weapon type and/or give it a new name? You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time, you know. Take what works and repackage it.
And every time I saw this done in Wrath, it made for a worse item. The armor that gives Improved invisibility when taking a hit, that was perfect for Nok-Nok? Repackaged into a cloak and now you lose out on saving throws, whereas the armor could be elevated via Magical Vestments. I can't replace the saving throw bonuses from cloaks without going Legend.)

[canuck250]

I have wished there was a way to scale the DC as well. One of my thoughts was with your weapon focus. So the more trained you are with that weapon the better you can make use of it's DC.

I also like it scaling with magic weapon, each +1 level gives it a % DC boost. I don't think all DC items should scale to the end game but they should scale at least a bit. Like the marching terror is amazing, but I am ok with it falling off, but a little extra scale life would be nice.

[dszombiex]

Yeah it seems like many items are built around a theme and roleplay more than functionality.

[Silyon]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Whenever I see an item, typically a weapon, with a DC check for X effect(extra damage, an inflicted condition, a -Y stat decrease, etc.) I usually assume it's trash. The DC checks are pretty much always too small to ever land. Particularly for low level weapons on higher difficulties.

Needing a DC check or be stunned/staggered or to occasionally nerf their saves or AC isn't necessarily bad, but I'd agree that they're basically nothing more than extras painted on your slappin stick against most enemies. It's mostly because the stat bloat in Wrath is absolutely insane by any metric, especially towards the late game where seeing +50 saves is relatively common. I enjoy the game, but I'd like to roleplay a little in my RPG and not have to min-max to hell.

That said, way too many "bonus" effects in this game only proc on a crit. Those effects are 100% worthless unless you're specifically building into crit, and even if you are you're unlikely to take them because in that situation Keen > whatever debuff or free spell would be cast. None of those weapons, to my knowledge, have Keen on them, or even a half-decent multiplier.

[reidj062]

It works the same way in the tabletop. Weapon magic DCs do not scale at the same rate as PC spells. An added component worth mentioning is that weapons that do elemental damage are increasingly worthless as you progress through the game, due to the high elemental resistances of your enemies. Nor is there a version of ascendant element that martials can take advantage of.

[mudakonn]

Not only weapons - there would be fantastic belt for Monk Mallander Penance if
1) it would actually work with monk subclasses (I understood it works on Lann)
2) 19 Fortitude check to do 1,5 blunt damage to the end of fight. No boss would fail that save

Maybe these checks weapons, items (especially if they are specific to a class - only monk can use it) would scale with primary class level if allowed to everybody or/and specific class level (monk items with monk levels only obviously)

This would steers away from multiclassing martials to 8 different classes and would reward staying with one class only.

[hilburnashua]

An great example of what reidj062 is talking about is the disruption property for weapons. In Pathfinder tabletop it has a DC 14 Will save or the weapon destroys an undead when it hits. The DC's of weapons can actually be pretty high in this game but I wouldn't mind seeing something like a fighter weapon group advancement that increased the DC of weapons in a group by 2 per time you purchased it. Or magus/paladin spending a use of their weapon enhancement ability to increase the DC of a weapon.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Silyon:

That said, way too many "bonus" effects in this game only proc on a crit. Those effects are 100% worthless unless you're specifically building into crit, and even if you are you're unlikely to take them because in that situation Keen > whatever debuff or free spell would be cast. None of those weapons, to my knowledge, have Keen on them, or even a half-decent multiplier.

Absolutely.

Even worse are the ones that require YOUR character to take a crit. Like the Buckler that Joran Vhane sells that gives a Mirror Image if you get crit. I guess it's cool that it gives the corpse a Mirror Image? Not very practical though.

[mk11]

How about just a Mythic Feat that adds Mythic level to the DC of all weapon effects?

[Yannir]

Originally posted by mk11:

How about just a Mythic Feat that adds Mythic level to the DC of all weapon effects?

That wouldn't really work in a possible next Pathfinder title but for this one, sure.

Ideally I think the formula should be DC10 + character BAB + Enchantment level. Classes could then have feats and skills that could improve it further.

For some weapons, you could replace the BAB with CL. Particularly ones intended to be used by spellcasters or priest-types.