Qlippoth [Story Spoilers?]

[Araragi Koyomi]

So, i'm new to pathfinder, new to D&D and crpgs in general but now i can play on unfair and not get all my stuff kicked in. Due to this i wanted to start learning about the lore and ONE stuck out to me particularly. Mentioned above.

Honestly, went ahead and looked it up and absolutely amazed by the lore surrounding these. I'm also VERY surprised this isn't a class option included in the story especially since we have devils and angels. A unique opportunity for a class with unique shape shifting. (DLC?) I would even say it should be mythic path option for late game.

Ah well, dreams for the dreamers. I do hope there's more on Xorges and his connection after Act 4. It's crazy that this is only a brief mention considering the circumstance (as far as i'm aware). Although, maybe it is nothing, maybe they aren't a big deal, but the Inheritors initial response and the fear surrounding them suggests otherwise.

[Homer Morisson]

That's basically due to it being too complex to implement properly, especially for such a niche choice... especially since Qlippoth are beings of pure, unadulterated, uncompromising Chaos, which would strictly limit your roleplaying experience, as they are not just a race like any other.

They are Outsiders, and therefor truly are literally *made* of Chaos, much unlike the beings from the Material Plane, and would therefor not only really need to be hard-locked into alignment, but also would be subject to many other special rules, not least of which they could be dismissed/banished at any moment back to their own plane, and last but not least the game would need to provide a credible reason as to how a Qlippoth could even exist on the Material Plane for any reasonable amount of time to begin with.

It also wouldn't really be the same as the Demon Mythic Path, as Demons are, obviously, fully capable of existing indefinitely (in theory at least) on the Material Plane.

As far as I am aware, no such precedence exists for Qlippoth.

Oh and let's not forget that Qlippoth are ancient beings, who ruled the Abyss before there ever was such a thing as "Demon", i.e. before the first mortal soul ever touched the Essence of the Abyss, thus their very being, their mindset, their motivations are all utterly alien and not easily comparable to even Demons, but especially not Mortalkind.

That raises the very interesting question:

Would a Qlippoth even give a damn what happens on another plane?
It's not *their* plane getting invaded and threatened with total annihilation, after all.

[Araragi Koyomi]

Originally posted by Homer Morisson:

That's basically due to it being too complex to implement properly, especially for such a niche choice... last but not least, Qlippoth are beings of pure, unadulterated, uncompromising Chaos, which would strictly limit your roleplaying experience, as they are not just a race like any other.

They are Outsiders, and therefor truly are literally *made* of Chaos, much unlike the beings from the Material Plane, and would therefor not only really need to be hard-locked into alignment, but also would be subject to many other special rules, not least of which they could be dismissed/banished at any moment back to their own plane, and last but not least the game would need to provide a credible reason as to how a Qlippoth could even exist on the Material Plane for any reasonable amount of time to begin with.

It also wouldn't really be the same as the Demon Mythic Path, as Demons are, obviously, fully capable of existing indefinitely (in theory at least) on the Material Plane.

As far as I am aware, no such precedence exists for Qlippoth.

Oh and let's not forget that Qlippoth are ancient beings, who ruled the Abyss before there ever was such a thing as "Demon", i.e. before the first mortal soul ever touched the Essence of the Abyss, thus their very being, their mindset, their motivations are all utterly alien and not easily comparable to even Demons, but especially not Mortalkind.

That raises the very interesting question:

Would a Qlippoth even give a damn what happens on another plane?
It's not *their* plane getting invaded and threatened with total annihilation, after all.

Wow, That's incredible. Yea they do seem VERY complex by that explanation. It seems like the only credible way for them to exist on Golarion would be to use a demon as a vessel?

As for their reason.
To regain the Abyss from demonkind.
To take revenge on the daemons.
To annihilate all demons.
Most vitally, to wipe out every mortal who embodies sin, the foodstuff of demons, to starve every demon to death and retake the Abyss, which they see as theirs.
[Source] https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Qlippoth#cite_note-Loc62-15

Not sure how credible that is.

Most Remarkably they seem very similar to "The Swarm That Walks" the path i am playing through now with the only major difference being (aside from the nature of their existence) the goals they are trying to accomplish. Devour/Grow vs. Kill/Revenge.

There is still a lot I am learning lore wise so there's probably more to it.

[Homer Morisson]

The main question remains, in my view, if we can even ascribe such motivations as you listed to a being so fundamentally alien, and above all, unfathomably ancient (by mortalkind's standards)...

Take the Status Quo in the Abyss as we find it during our foray into Nocticula's Realm:

The Qlippoth are, apparently, fully content with having (been forced to) withdraw(n) to the depths of the Ishiar, which in turn is believed to be of infinite depth itself... had they any sort of recognizable motivations to take revenge on Demonkind or to reconquer the Abyss, they've certainly not shown it in any width of Time.

They instead seem, if not content, then perhaps resigned to remain in said depths, which in kind have (been?) adapted to their presence, turning the depths of the Ishiar into a (sub-)realm of literal chaos, made from the very fabric or essence of Chaotic Energy.

This isn't even remotely the same as the Alignment "Chaotic [x]", but rather is the idea of Chaos itself given substance, however fleeting and ever-changing.

Had the Qlippoth had any such motivations, aspirations, surely they would have taken some type of action by now... instead however, we find one NPC in Alushinyrra that clearly states what I mentioned above, that the Qlippoth are for all intents and purposes content with staying in their new realm, far from the influence of any Mortals or Demons, as none could survive in their realm... at the very least not in the same shape and mode of existence as they were upon entering the realm of literal Chaos.

[CRAGNAR]

Just make a sorcerer character for melee with a few additional bloodlines to improve your natural AC, STR, CON, and resistances. You'll be a transforming monstrosity of epic proportions with insane +to your attack rolls. And thanks to your spells, enemies will be hitting your mirror images, missing, and everything beyond in no time.

[Araragi Koyomi]

Originally posted by Homer Morisson:

The main question remains, in my view, if we can even ascribe such motivations as you listed to a being so fundamentally alien, and above all, unfathomably ancient (by mortalkind's standards)...

Take the Status Quo in the Abyss as we find it during our foray into Nocticula's Realm:

The Qlippoth are, apparently, fully content with having (been forced to) withdraw(n) to the depths of the Ishiar, which in turn is believed to be of infinite depth itself... had they any sort of recognizable motivations to take revenge on Demonkind or to reconquer the Abyss, they've certainly not shown it in any width of Time.

They instead seem, if not content, then perhaps resigned to remain in said depths, which in kind have (been?) adapted to their presence, turning the depths of the Ishiar into a (sub-)realm of literal chaos, made from the very fabric or essence of Chaotic Energy.

This isn't even remotely the same as the Alignment "Chaotic [x]", but rather is the idea of Chaos itself given substance, however fleeting and ever-changing.

Had the Qlippoth had any such motivations, aspirations, surely they would have taken some type of action by now... instead however, we find one NPC in Alushinyrra that clearly states what I mentioned above, that the Qlippoth are for all intents and purposes content with staying in their new realm, far from the influence of any Mortals or Demons, as none could survive in their realm... at the very least not in the same shape and mode of existence as they were upon entering the realm of literal Chaos.

Everything you say just makes them more interesting. Thank you for indulging my curiosity.

I can definitely see why they weren't added as a class/mythic path during development. Their mention in this game shows signs that they were at the very least acknowledged. Which I appreciate immensely.

They are entities that exist outside of what is considered normal. There's so much more i want to say and ask. If they are Idea of Chaos given form what separates them from being as powerful as Aeons who can travel through time and "correct" changes outside of the natural order. (I probably answered this below)

I am not even sure if I should be putting Aeons and Qlippoths in the same wheelhouse. Could it be that they have not made overt attempts to take back the abyss because they no longer have the ability to do so? Could they simply be waiting for more of their kin to manifest in their plane. Probably not, In true chaotic essence i wouldn't say that they "think" about what to do next more than they act immediately on whatever is occurring Xorges entered their plane over and over and they swarmed him over and over again. They didn't talk to him they didn't plot with him/ Alright i think I am understanding them a bit more now.

The way Xorges describes diving into the "water" is the same description used to describe the Imp taking shelter in the small bag where it would feel like it is suffocating if it went outside of that bag. I would say they can't take revenge simply because they can't continue to exist outside their version of Chaos.

So...From what i gather, Qlippoths are "pure" Chaos, they cannot exist outside of this energy. The only reason one now resides in Xorges is because he entered their plane and they acted on that, otherwise they might just be content spiraling in pure chaos unto infinity.

Uhg, there's so much i want to know but i also don't feel like typing out walls of text. Ill just wholeheartedly agree that these would have been VERY difficult to add into mainstory.