Are magic fang and greater magic fang completely broken?

[x_equals_speed]

I've been running a party with the unarmed attack tailwind and was finding it easy enough not to play close attention to the log, but it started getting harder and it seemed we were missing a lot so I read it more closely and it looks like they never apply. Not to druids in wild shape. Not to monks. Not to bloodragers with claws.

Do these spells just not work at all?

[x_equals_speed]

(I'm aware it's an enhancement bonus and does not stack with other enhancement bonuses, in all cases the spells were on characters who either didn't have an enhancement bonus or had a smaller one from something else)

[Invisible]

They work with animal companions.

[x_equals_speed]

I tried tried magic weapon in case Owlcats definition of "natural attack" and "weapon attack" is whether it's done by the animal companion or a player character, but it seems they've implemented that one correctly.

I also polymorphed my animal companion to see what happened and it lost the enhancement bonus. I recast magic fang for good measure (in case the ruling was their old claws were enchanted and these are now new claws) but nope.

Looks like it only works on animal companions and only on their original natural attacks.

[Invisible]

Originally posted by x_equals_speed:

I tried tried magic weapon in case Owlcats definition of "natural attack" and "weapon attack" is whether it's done by the animal companion or a player character, but it seems they've implemented that one correctly.

I also polymorphed my animal companion to see what happened and it lost the enhancement bonus. I recast magic fang for good measure (in case the ruling was their old claws were enchanted and these are now new claws) but nope.

Looks like it only works on animal companions and only on their original natural attacks.

I think there was the same "wording" problem in Kingmaker.

[SmallGespenst]

it must be one of Owlcat's weird rule changes 'cause the table top rules do have it work on any natural attack or unarmed attack

[x_equals_speed]

I think calling it a rules change is generous. Presumably if it was an intentional change to the rules they'd have made the ability description say what it actually did, rather than stating that it works on unarmed strikes and natural attacks.

If it doesn't do what it says it does, it's a bug.

[x_equals_speed]

Though if they've got a set of things they considered "rules changes" that are "times things in the game do not work in the stated fashion" and are ignoring all bug reports about them because they like things that way it would explain a lot about the state of the game.

[Erikkustrife]

Originally posted by x_equals_speed:

I've been running a party with the unarmed attack tailwind and was finding it easy enough not to play close attention to the log, but it started getting harder and it seemed we were missing a lot so I read it more closely and it looks like they never apply. Not to druids in wild shape. Not to monks. Not to bloodragers with claws.

Do these spells just not work at all?

Hey sorry about this but i know its a really complicated and kinda weird thing but its not supposed to work in that instance. you would get the damage on tabletop, but not the to hit.

Edit: i should also note that once a animal companion becomes mature they also dont qualify for magic fangs damage either.

[SmallGespenst]

Originally posted by Erikkustrife:

Originally posted by x_equals_speed:

I've been running a party with the unarmed attack tailwind and was finding it easy enough not to play close attention to the log, but it started getting harder and it seemed we were missing a lot so I read it more closely and it looks like they never apply. Not to druids in wild shape. Not to monks. Not to bloodragers with claws.

Do these spells just not work at all?

Hey sorry about this but i know its a really complicated and kinda weird thing but its not supposed to work in that instance. you would get the damage on tabletop, but not the to hit.

Edit: i should also note that once a animal companion becomes mature they also dont qualify for magic fangs damage either.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, 'cause the tabletop rules doesn't have anything like that

Originally posted by D20PFSRD:

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.

Magic fang can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

pretty simple, and the only thing mentioned about targets is that it's a living creature.

[Stink Bug]

Back in Kingmaker (and for at least much of Wrath), GMF was bugged in that the enhancement would be removed (included for player's natural attacks, not just unarmed) upon loading the game or transitioning to new area (I've seen some mention on these forums that it gets removed upon saving). I've never seen it listed as fixed in the patch notes.

There was even a Kingmaker mod to fix it since Owlcat never did:
https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/236

[hilburnashua]

From what I remember of Kingmaker, the animal companions received a enhancement bonus to damage as they leveled up which was about what the weapon enhancements the characters would have at the time, which was pretty much as good as the bonus that greater magic weapon/greater magic fang gave.

[x_equals_speed]

So wait, if the spell was bugged so it only worked on animal companions and animal companions were misimplemented to get a bonus that didn't stack with the spell, what was the point of it?

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by x_equals_speed:

So wait, if the spell was bugged so it only worked on animal companions and animal companions were misimplemented to get a bonus that didn't stack with the spell, what was the point of it?

Just bad implementation probably. Could also be they made a decision some point in development to just give the animal companions the bonus since there might be classes with access to animal companions that don't have access to Greater Magic Fang (cleric with Animal Domain didn't). And you couldn't give animal companions equipment, that was something that was implemented in WotR (as was being able to choose how your animal companion leveled).

I just loaded a lvl 20 dungeon run with a few animal companions. They all show as having a +5 other bonus (enhanced attacks). Throwing magic fang on them did nothing so my guess is that bonus is actually mis-labled and is functioning as an enhancement bonus.

[Vampirate]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Originally posted by x_equals_speed:

So wait, if the spell was bugged so it only worked on animal companions and animal companions were misimplemented to get a bonus that didn't stack with the spell, what was the point of it?

Just bad implementation probably. Could also be they made a decision some point in development to just give the animal companions the bonus since there might be classes with access to animal companions that don't have access to Greater Magic Fang (cleric with Animal Domain didn't). And you couldn't give animal companions equipment, that was something that was implemented in WotR (as was being able to choose how your animal companion leveled).

I just loaded a lvl 20 dungeon run with a few animal companions. They all show as having a +5 other bonus (enhanced attacks). Throwing magic fang on them did nothing so my guess is that bonus is actually mis-labled and is functioning as an enhancement bonus.

Bit late to the party on this one but yeah Owlcat does that sometimes. Like they'll implement redundant systems and just leave them in for a while. When wrath first launched you could buy camping supplies