Surprise round

[stefan.scheibstock]

Hi,

Can someone explain me the advantage of surprise rounds? I dont get it

I have attacked an enemie whith a range bow attack > this should trigger a surprise round but

As soon as the battle starts all (incl enemies which are surprised) start to move and attack regarding their normal initiative throw

So for my example:

I make range attack…my initiative throw is set to 5 seconds

The enemies initiative was 3 seconds

The enemie immediatly moves to my position and could immediatly attack me…then he has to wait for 6 seconds and he could make next attack

I was also able to move to enemies position (same range) and could immediatly attack him…but then i have to wait 9 seconds for next attack


So ok my initative was lower than his…but what is the advantage of surprise? Even when i would have the same initative as my enemie i would not get an advantage?

I dont get that…can anyone explain the exact battle round order with surprise round?

Thx!

[anfindel13]

Initiative is highly advantageous in turn based combat. Might just be my ancient and very slow reflexes, but never found it to be much use outside turn base. Those split second distinctions - even with the ability to pause, give commands, and unpause - are far beyond the ability of this mortal man.

In turn based, surprise will give each of your party a full free round - your opponents will not be able to take any action at all until the second round - so those in your party with higher initiative than the opposing mobs will then have a second round as well. You can kill or otherwise hamper A LOT of the enemy before they can do anything.

[stefan.scheibstock]

Ok but in the normal real time mode it makes no sense or?

Fact is that there is an surprise round because i only recognized it when i make a combat charge and saw in the log that there was a +2 on attack throw for 2 attacks and not 1 like the description told you

[mudakonn]

Yes - it is more of a turn based thing. You get free potshots on flatfooted enemies before round 1. Just try it out with caster or ranged attacker - ranged attacker opening with high seaak attack dice can outright end the encounter before any enemy can take any action at all.

[juzam_djinn_fr]

Some rules like surprise round (who gives either a move action or a standard action but not both) or 5 foot step works just fine while you play turn based but either works differently or not at all when you play RTWP.
For example, in RTWP, everyone can always move (and will until they reach someone to hit) but it should not be the case according to TableTop rules.

The difference come from the way things are coded into the game, RTWP exist since Kingmaker and use that code, while turn based was added for WOTR and was coded later.
If you want an experience close to Tabletop, play TB.

Playing TB or RTWP is pretty different, It will even affect the way you build your party, as stats like initiative, or swift actions, are a lot more valuable in TB.

i explained how surprise round and 5-foot step work for TT and in TB in this guide :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2747711418

[stefan.scheibstock]

Thx for reply…let me write an example if i understand it correct:

Player-npc surprises enemie with bow range attack

Round order is as follows:

1. player with range attack:
can attack immediatly 1 time

2. player can move around like he wants and then has to wait the rest of the initiative timer lets say 3 sec to attack for 2 time

3 player can move around like he wants and then has to wait the rest of the round timer 6 sec to attack for the 3 time


Enemie:

1 enemie can move around like he wants and then has to wait the rest of the initative timer lets say 3 sec to attack for the 1 time

2 enemie can move around like he wants and then has to wait the rest of 6 sec round to attack for the 2 time


And when i dont havec range attack and make a surprise melee attack i also the „enemie round order“ from above..mean i dont get any advantage of the surprise round…execpt skill charge attack because the +2 bonus then counts for both attacks

Does it work like this?

[mk11]

No.

Assuming you mean in RTWP mode.

You can pause before launching attacks. Give orders for all your melee characters to charge, and mounted characters with no charge available to attack. Then when you unpause in the surprise round all those charging/advancing characters will get an attack/charge during the surprise round.

All your ranged and spell-casting characters will have time to complete one standard action, e.g. normal spell cast, vital strike arrow shot.

During that time the enemy does nothing.

Then the normal initiative and combat takes over.

However, for inexplicable reasons it doesn't always work out like that.

[stefan.scheibstock]

What i dont get is the following i have tested it:

I had open an surprise round by range attack on a mongrol> OK

Then the initative says 3 sec for the mongrol and 3 sec for me > OK

When i then tell my melee character to make a normal attack on the mongrol…
…the mongrol and i move and met in the middle after 3 sec and both can make a hit at the same time (because moving does not cost points so the 3 sec are already melt down)

So what is the advantage of this round for me?
We had both an initative of 3 sec and i have the advantage of surprise
….so i should have an advantage overall
But we both move for 3 sec and then attack…so no advantage for me

Im completly lost here

[mudakonn]

Originally posted by stefan.scheibstock:

What i dont get is the following i have tested it:

I had open an surprise round by range attack on a mongrol> OK

Then the initative says 3 sec for the mongrol and 3 sec for me > OK

When i then tell my melee character to make a normal attack on the mongrol…
…the mongrol and i move and met in the middle after 3 sec and both can make a hit at the same time (because moving does not cost points so the 3 sec are already melt down)

So what is the advantage of this round for me?
We had both an initative of 3 sec and i have the advantage of surprise
….so i should have an advantage overall
But we both move for 3 sec and then attack…so no advantage for me

Im completly lost here

I suggest You try play turn based for harder fights and let RTWP take care of trash encounters. You can toggle between them easily - if battle is decided in turn based you let RTWP take over.

It is almost impossible to play spellcasters with RTWP and swift actions just are lost because game does not bother to use them or free actions in RTWP.

[mk11]

Unless you can close combat while they are still flat-footed (typically this means charge, mount, invisibility, etc.) then surprise gives no advantage to the melee characters. Why should it, given the enemy has a chance to recover from the surprise?

[mudakonn]

Originally posted by mk11:

Unless you can close combat while they are still flat-footed (typically this means charge, mount, invisibility, etc.) then surprise gives no advantage to the melee characters. Why should it, given the enemy has a chance to recover from the surprise?

And spellcaster with Sorcerous Reflex can get off TWO spells in surprise round:)

[mbradtke]

from what i noticed, in real time mode suprise round just lets u act instantly, no matter your initiative, u can act earlier in fact but if u do your next turn will be delayed, how much depends on the your initiative throw

[stefan.scheibstock]

Ok thx for your replys to sum up:

I only want to understand the real time mode:

When i‘am able to hit someone how has condition flat footed —> i gain advantage of surprise round meaning i can make an additional attack (this happens when:

I make a range attack
Or i could charge the enemie as long as he is still flat footed (when he looses this condit before ich reach him) i dont think i get the bonus correct?)
Charge also gives then +2 bonus on both attacks (surprise attack an normal attack)

Normal attacks (not close enough to enemy) dont give me advantages right?

[mk11]

Mostly true. If you are fast enough to close the distance in the surprise period then you may still get an attack in while they are flat-footed if you get a better initiative rule.

[Adeptus Stark]

The other issue with RTwP is your characters don't have their weapons drawn when combat starts. So for all but the first party member you surprise attack with, they are drawing weapons which takes time. You can see them pulling out their sword and shield when the enemy is charging.

In Turn Based mode, weapons, shields, etc are already drawn and rightly so when you're walking around a battlefield.

The games rules were built for Turn Based so RTwP gets a little hairy.